It's Marketing's Fault

It is time for Build That Podcast, where we'll discuss how you can use a podcast to grow your business and expand your influence.

I'm your host, Eric Rutherford, and I am thrilled today because I have with me Marcus Schaller.

He is a long-time marketer and copywriter.

He's also a host of the Attract Your Ideal Customers podcast, which provides real-world actionable marketing advice to help you cut through the noise and attract your ideal customers.

Marcus, welcome to the show.

Thank you so much for having me.

It's my pleasure.

It has been fun and encouraging connecting with you on LinkedIn, to be able to be on your podcast and just the conversations we've had.

So I know what you bring to the table will be incredibly valuable to the audience.

Well, I hope so.

I know you and I have had some really good conversations so far, so definitely we've warmed up.

That is true.

That is very true.

So let me just ask what prompted a longtime copywriter to make the jump into creating a podcast?

Because you've been a copywriter for many years.

Why make the jump to podcasting?

It's funny, actually, I wish podcasting existed 20 years ago.

Um, I was the guy at the, what was then Kinko's, you know, back in the late nineties, early two thousands, like, you know, at the, at the paper cutting machine, creating like DV or CD ROM, you know, paper inserts for like audio programs that I created about marketing.

Right.

So I did an old school, like burning a CD ROM with an audio program.

having to do it all manually and get the jewel cases for that.

And so podcasting is like, just like a no brainer, you know, it's like a natural extension.

None of that's none of the, even, you know, YouTube, like I'm dating myself horribly here, but like all that's none of that stuff existed.

Right.

And even being able to share audio, basic audio content online was like very difficult to do is expensive, slow.

It just wasn't anything like it is today.

So, um, Podcasting, you know, obviously has been around for a while.

Like, you know, I think it was really kind of started by comedians or whatever.

That was that kind of interview format, but you know, more lately when it became more of a business oriented thing, I just back when the pandemic started in 2020, um, like a lot of people, I was like, okay, let's do it.

Let's start something.

And this is actually, I think the, the attract your ideal customer show is, is really.

I've done like three, I think at least three other versions of podcasting before.

So I've played around with different themes and things like that.

But hopefully I think I'm not like about episode 40 something now.

So hopefully I, I stick with this one for a while.

No, I agree.

And I'm with you.

I enjoyed the audio format early on, but I did not get onto the podcast sort of bandwagon until like that 2020 with podcasting, both in the creating and in the listening.

I think it was probably the end of 2019.

Yeah, it was 2019, really before I started listening to podcasts.

So this is...

But then it was like full tilt into it.

Yeah, it's a fun and now, you know, it's such a fun medium, right?

It's just like, I really enjoy it.

I actually, this is you and I have talked about, you know, independently on our conversations that we've had, you know, even using Premiere Pro to edit it and create, it's like so creative and fun.

Sometimes it could be a little bit like when you're trying to get an episode out and you got a lot of other work on your plate, it could be a little frustrating.

But overall, it's just a really fun way to create content.

It's a great way to meet people, but again, we'll probably get into all these things later too.

Now, it's true though, all of those things are absolutely true.

So for everybody listening, if your business is thinking about a podcast, there are just so many benefits to starting one or guesting on one, lots of opportunities.

And that just kind of leads into what is the attract your ideal customers podcast?

So as I mentioned earlier, there's been a couple of iterations of how I wanted to approach podcasting as a content pillar for what I do.

So I think an earlier iteration of it a couple of years ago was focusing on the problem solving side of marketing.

And then I had a different approach to it with content strategy.

So this show as it is now really kind of combines those aspects.

But.

What I really focus on overlaps very much with what I do professionally, right?

So as a content creator and copywriter for, as a freelancer for companies, uh, one of the biggest, uh, kind of bottlenecks that I see in marketing is just an unclear idea of who your ideal customer even is, right?

So when I was thinking about what I wanted to really focus on as an overall core theme.

The whole idea of how do you make that those hard decisions and the, you know, to really decide like, this is what we're good at.

This is our strength as a company or as a consultant or independent, whatever it is that you're doing as a freelancer and how that overlaps with.

a very specific group of people or companies and the problems they have and how you're able to serve them in a way that few other competitors, if any, are able to do in just that same way, right?

And making those decisions and having those conversations and thinking about those things makes the act of creating marketing for writing your messaging and copy and creating your website so much easier, right?

So...

The people that I have on the show, I'll have founders, CEOs, people that are like everything from larger companies to, but a lot of people that are like independents or consultants.

And then professional marketers within companies, so CMOs, product marketing managers, that kind of thing.

So a lot of different perspectives on having them share how they got to that point in their businesses, how they made those decisions.

And it's interesting because every conversation I have, there's certain themes that are, you see kind of threaded through, there's certain common commonalities, right?

But ultimately everybody comes at it with their own unique perspective.

And every time I talk to somebody, I'm always a little, at least a little surprised by something that I'll come up with.

And I'll be like, oh, that's so cool.

I never thought of it that way, right?

So my hope is people listening will be able to relate to that, you know, where it's like they're hearing people that...

They're in the trenches, they're doing this for real, in real life, and a lot of my guests are pretty candid about the challenges they face doing that.

So I like that approach with it, so people listening can actually not only learn something from it and get some actionable advice to follow, but also be like, okay, I can relate to this person.

It's not just me going through this.

So it makes it much more relatable for the listener and it's much more conversational for the guest it sounds like from that.

Attracting your ideal customers.

Everybody brings something, their own, I say angle, but really their own perspective to it.

I had not thought of it that way.

Yeah, it's also a great learning tool for me, right?

Because a huge part of my job is to understand the challenges that my ideal customers have, right?

So if my focus is working with small but growing companies, helping them focus their marketing, right?

So they can attract more of those kinds of ideal customers.

And real quick, the reason it matters so much is not only makes it easier for you to be able to create your own marketing, but it also makes it much easier.

not easy, but it makes it easier to be successful.

Because if you're serving a lot of different types of customers and a lot of them maybe aren't really a good fit, you're wasting a lot of energy and resources on people that maybe you're not the right solution for.

So for me as a copywriter and content creator for clients, these conversations have really expanded my awareness of how my clients might be actually thinking about these problems.

Because it's so easy for me to.

just come at it from the marketing, you know, I'm the marketing guy and I think I know what people want.

You know, everybody's different, right?

So it's expanded my understanding of that as well.

And that is one of the advantages of having a podcast, is you get to ask those questions, you just get to sit there, you get to learn.

And it really is, I don't want to say it's like an informational sales call, but really you just get to ask questions and listen and take notes and learn.

And it really can shape how you do business, much like you said.

Absolutely.

Yeah, it's good practice.

I mean, you know, before we hit record, you and I were talking about the value of being able to create space in a conversation and have some silence, right?

And how counterintuitive that can feel for a lot of people.

You know, all of us are involved in sales to some capacity in some capacity or another, even if we work within a company, we still have to sell our ideas.

And just the act of, you know, talking to somebody new every day almost, so when I have my show, you know, I was doing five episodes a week.

Lately I've scaled it back just because it's a little hard to keep up with that cadence.

But just talking to so many new people in this kind of format, it's such good practice and training for really being present with people.

And just that skill alone, even if nothing happens with the podcast, just that skill being developed is like a huge, a huge benefit.

It is.

It's this sort of conversation by appointment.

It's where we're just sitting down and during this time it's just us and the world goes away and all the distractions go away.

In some ways it's one of the few times when you can say, I am unavailable to the rest of the world.

absolutely.

Especially, uh, yeah, I'm kind of lucky because I have.

I, I like my phone's always on, do not disturb whatever right now.

My biggest problem is disturbance.

I got the puppy over here that might start getting restless.

Right.

But I don't have to worry about people like pinging me on Slack or that's just not how I work, you know?

Um, but yeah, a lot of other people, it's like, you know, if you're kind of like on that Slack channel all day, or if you're other people within your organization or creating meetings on your calendar.

This is almost like the time that you can just be like, no, I'm not available.

I can't just cancel this.

But yeah, it's just, there's again, there's so many different little benefits I've learned.

And I'm sorry, you have too, as you started and built the show of things that you never even expect that you're gonna get out of this experience.

Indeed.

And one of the things that you and I had chatted about, well, we've chatted about a couple of different times, is the Attract Your Ideal Customers podcast that you have today is not the original version of this particular podcast that you started earlier in the year.

what caused the change?

It was like a rebranding and a readjusting.

Would you kind of talk us through that?

Because I think it's incredibly valuable.

I had a conversation with somebody about podcasting the other day, and I said, do you have permission to change your mind and change as you go along if it's not a fit?

And so I think we don't understand, I think businesses don't understand that.

So.

would love to hear your story and how you went from one thing to another.

Yeah, it's funny.

Sometimes it's easy for me to give advice about focusing the messaging on the right target audience, and then sometimes it's a little easier to take my own advice.

So it was originally called the Red Thread Messaging Podcast.

The reason it was called that is because there's a concept called Red Thread, right?

So Red Thread is different versions of it, but basically the way I interpret it is, what is that sweet spot, right?

And mentioned earlier between...

what your meaning is, what your strengths are, what your purpose is, right?

It's like the theme.

You can think of it as a theme, right?

And in this context, the red thread was really about what's the red thread of your business or brand and how that relates to your ideal customer, right?

The reason I started with that is A, I just thought it was a cool term, right?

So, and my first few episodes really were talking to, I was speaking with professional marketers.

And it's not that professional marketers understand what Red Thread is and everybody doesn't, but everybody else doesn't.

But it was like a thing where I had already kind of fixated on that title and changing it is kind of, it's just some work to changing it, right?

But what I found was, I don't think it hurt me in the sense it was a brand new show.

So it wasn't like I was like gonna get huge traction just from the name right away.

But I found myself having to explain the name of the show to people, which kind of defeats the purpose, right?

So after a few episodes, I was kind of like just wringing my hands and figuring like, what can it be?

What would the other name be?

And again, making that tough decision for myself, right?

Because it's like, if I change it, I don't wanna change it again in six months.

So I decided, you know, the attract your ideal customers, that is a name is a- very straightforward.

You don't have to explain it to people.

And luckily, at that point in time, I did some Googling and nobody else had a podcast called that.

So I was like, all right, cool.

That's the new name.

And it took a little bit of work to rebrand it as far as updating on anchor and having all the kind of technical updates.

And I'd sent out emails to people.

who had been on the show saying, hey, by the way, you kind of just let people know.

It's a brand new show.

Nobody was like, it wasn't causing anybody any distress.

I changed the name.

So it was the right time to do it.

Like at the beginning, really, really tiny little audience had figured this is the time to pull the trigger on that.

And it might create a little confusion at that for that month and period where I had invites out to people.

And they're like, hey, the link doesn't work anymore.

Like, oh, I'm sorry.

I just rebranded.

Here's the new link, you know, but I don't think it really created much drama than that.

I think hearing that definitely takes some pressure off of people when they're like, oh, I have to get it right out of the gate.

I can't.

Oh, what if I do it wrong?

Oh, what if I change my mind?

All of those questions that we second guess ourselves with.

And I think that's hearing your story has also sort of given me that freedom.

It's like, okay.

we can just adjust as we go, not whimsically, but strategically.

And I think having a podcast and just a medium makes it more flexible than some others.

What do you think?

I agree, I mean, you know, I think this is the conversation that's come up a lot with people that I've spoken to about starting something.

They're waiting till the right moment where everything lines up, right?

Where it's perfect.

It's never gonna be perfect, it's evolving, right?

And yeah, I mean, you don't wanna, you wanna take a little time at the beginning and think through some name ideas.

You don't wanna just jump into something and grab the first thing that you can think of.

One of the reasons why, you know, when I said I had three, four different iterations, I love tinkering with this stuff.

So for me, spending time and even if I stop after 20 episodes, it's not a waste of time.

I love it.

And it's part of my profession.

It's now I feel like I have more experience.

Not everybody's like that.

So I know it's like kind of like, oh, I might have to learn how to use this editing stuff.

So it just depends on what your strengths and interests are.

It reminds me of something I read in, you know, a few years ago and in some book about they were talking about.

Google at the beginning and before anybody knew Google was.

And they're like, the founders were like, and I'm paraphrasing, but they're like, hey, you know, it's okay that it takes longer for a lot of users to find us because it gives us time to get better.

And so my thinking with that is, you know, when you start a podcast, unless you're already very well known, more than likely you're not gonna have many downloads, you're not gonna have a big audience.

So really you get to play around, it's kind of one of the benefits of being able to do it as most of us aren't going to have a huge platform to begin with, right?

It's probably more pressure for somebody if they're already a well-known thought leader or CEO at a very high profile startup.

If they're going to start a podcast, there's probably a little bit more pressure on them.

But ultimately, even if you do all the work upfront and spend months waiting until you have the perfect thing.

you start doing it and you're probably gonna immediately see ways that you need to make it better.

And that could be that you need to rebrand it.

It could be that the topic nobody cares about.

All these things can change.

But again, 20 years ago, 18 years ago, when I'm like, I had to spend hundreds of dollars to buy a bunch of jewel cases for CDs and all this stuff.

You had to really invest money.

This is all almost free to do it.

So even if you try it and you start out and you tank it completely and chuck it and start over from scratch, that's actually kind of a good thing because as long as you're starting something, you're able to learn.

It is.

It is a learning process.

And as much as we want to know up front, until you actually sort of get on that bicycle and start pedaling, you just, you don't know what you don't know.

you don't know what you don't know.

And I think it goes aligned with, I think every other aspect of life.

Like randomness is what drives most of what happens in our lives, serendipity.

Like we think that we should know what's gonna happen.

If anything, the last three years have taught all of us is that we have no idea what's gonna happen.

And ultimately the people who are really successful, we see it after the fact.

So all looks like this really you know, genius strategy and they had it all figured out from the beginning.

It's not, it's basically we're seeing it after the fact, we have no clue.

All the failures that happened in between, which are probably plenty.

We don't know all the serendipitous connections and relationships that came out of weird angles.

Like none of that's going to happen unless you're actually doing something.

And that, that to me is like the ability now to do this kind of stuff and not be petrified like.

A long time ago, I was much more afraid of failure.

I was much more afraid of trying something and not working because I was so invested in my ideas being good that I didn't do stuff or I do stuff right to the point where I put it out and then I just chicken out.

It was really debilitating.

So I know what it feels like personally, very much so to be like, oh, I can't pull the trigger on it, you know.

I agree, and I've been the same way, and this has been, for me, just a great way to learn and try and get out there and sort of risk without huge risk, you know, sort of that measured risk.

What's something important that non-podcasters don't know about podcasting?

Does that question make sense?

So what is something that you have learned that you found to be important about podcasting that people who aren't involved in the creation, the production, the value of it, that they just don't understand or don't know?

Yeah, I mean, this is just my own perspective, but off the top of my head, I think the role of authenticity in it, I can't say that other people would know it because I don't know what other people would know, but I think that it's easy to assume that a podcast or any kind of content that we're creating that's this kind of interview format or even a solo show or whatnot, has to be this really like super polished.

show, like we're basing it on like a talk show or something that we see on NBC, right?

And that's fine.

For me, and maybe it's just my personal tastes, I think it might surprise people who aren't in the podcasting space or haven't created one or aren't listening to a lot of podcasts that the ones that are often the most influential, whether they're popular or not, but the most influential.

are the ones that, yes, there's a certain basic standard of production value.

You have to be able to hear people well, you have to be able to see people.

There has to be a certain level of that.

But ultimately, they're not these super polished, I'm a persona talking to this persona and we're pretending to be something.

I think, I don't think that's what the strength of this medium is personally.

I think the strength of this medium is you and I, we could have recorded our conversation from a couple weeks ago, and it might've made a great podcast, right?

Because we're just talking.

And in that conversation, we're present and we're talking about something we both care about or different things we both care about.

And if there's an audience that's interested in those things, and we can reach them, and we can cut through all the noise and all the other stuff that we have to get through to get to them, That's the magic of this format.

So I think it might surprise people who haven't created one yet, and maybe that's what's holding them back is, do I have to be fake?

Do I have to pretend I'm something I'm not?

Do I have to pretend I'm a ho?

I don't personally think you should have to pretend anything.

You bring the best part of yourself to the game.

You don't slack off about it.

You do your homework and you make sure you're prepared.

But ultimately, I think the magic in these conversations is really just two people being real with each other and taking the risk of knowing that at the end of the day or the end of the episode of the recording, maybe there's nothing good there.

That could happen, right?

But that's the risk.

And I think that's where it gets interesting, especially when I have guests on, you know, a lot of times...

they'll talk about something for a while like I'm doing right now, right?

And then they'll say, oh, I'm sorry, I kind of went off on a tangent.

And I'm like, or they'll say it after we hit stop on the record.

And I'll say, no, that's cool.

Like the tangents are kind of where the cool stuff comes up from, right?

So anyway, I don't know if that's, that would surprise other people, but that's kind of the first thing I can think of.

No, I like that.

And it's true.

It's those tangents when you get past that initial answer and you start chasing rabbits down a trail and you never know where you're going to wind up.

And that really is where powerful conversations occur.

And think about it too, I don't know if you and I had talked about this specifically, but you know, for a lot of people, nobody ever really asks them questions with pure curiosity and interest, really allowing them to answer those questions.

I don't think it's as common.

I think being in a situation where somebody's actually talking to you and wants to hear your perspective is really new for some people.

I think it's...

maybe a little intimidating, but the point is, it's like sometimes it takes people a minute to kind of get, they're thinking of it for the first time.

Nobody's ever asked them, you know, why did you start the podcast or whatever, right?

So they're like, these aren't like just things they talk, oh, how's the weather?

It's great, you know, or how's work?

It's great, you know.

So just that openness and creating that space for people just to be able to even kind of go through their own little, like you said, rabbit hole.

and discover the answer sometimes for the first time.

That's the really fun thing when I have a conversation with somebody and you could tell the light bulb just went off because I asked them like a question about like their target audience or something or their marketing and they're like, oh yeah, you know.

So yeah, it's something that I think you're giving people a gift by having these conversations with them personally, I think.

I agree.

And that moment, like I've had two or three of those moments where the light bulb goes off and they're like, oh, I never made that connection before.

And it's like in the recording and you just have that moment and it's, I feel like that is such a gift to me.

And I hope it is to them just to be able to sort of verbally process those ideas and.

Like you say, which they may never have connected before.

And again, few people really, you mentioned before about being able to create space to think or create space in your calendar to have a conversation.

You know, it's how many people, especially in the corporate world, you know, don't even have time to really sit and do any deep work or thinking or problem solving, right?

Or just to ponder something.

No, that's not my speed.

That's not how I want to live.

And I've...

created my work life around that, prioritizes time and space to be able to do that thinking because that's part of what creates the value for my clients.

But it's not as common, right?

So, just to create that space for people to explore their thoughts and explore a problem or a question, right?

It's again, it's not maybe, I think people will be surprised that, oh, who would wanna talk to me about this?

You might be really surprised, regardless of what the topic is that you're interested in maybe doing a show about.

there might be a lot of people that would really love the opportunity just to be asked questions about.

It is, and I find that each person's experience, each person's expertise, because we are all experts in something, we all have some type of knowledge or talent or something, it is always interesting to other people.

It won't be interesting to everybody, but it will be interesting to some people.

And when you can connect like, this person's story to listeners who want to hear, that's a beautiful thing.

Yeah, absolutely.

And it takes practice.

It's something that I mentioned to you earlier about meditation.

For years I've been meditating and how that's helped me be calmer, create a little more space.

That's, again, 20 years ago, I might not have been able to do that.

It might be a very different conversation we're having right now.

And maybe not as, maybe a little bit more stressful for you, but.

You know, it takes practice.

So if somebody is listening and you're thinking about doing something like this and starting a show or being a guest on a show, it's like, you're not going to be awesome.

Maybe you will be awesome right off the bat.

That could be true too.

So authenticity doesn't mean that you're not awesome exactly as you are, but there are certain things that get in our own way.

Right.

So even just the skillset of being able to ask good questions, knowing those evolved over the course of 40 plus episodes too.

I mean, if, you know, the questions I asked people on episode four, are different than the questions I asked somebody two days ago.

So all these things you're evolving and iterating as you go and learning.

And kind of building off of that learning question and that idea of as part of this, it's a skill set to learn, it's a process to develop, you learn by doing, you also learn through making mistakes.

You know, because you can't try something new and build something without some type of mistakes occurring.

It's just not possible.

What?

What are some of the mistakes that you've made, one or two mistakes you've made in your podcast journey maybe with your new one that you're like, wow, I didn't anticipate that, but I don't want to say it, they were like catastrophic failures, but what are a couple of things that you just sort of walked into unexpectedly and you're like, ooh, I need to change that?

Does that question make sense?

It does, I mean one thing that comes to mind is I think that it's easy to overestimate the importance of your show to your guests.

I don't wanna say it was a mistake I made, but maybe I wasn't, you know, cause it wasn't like it didn't create a problem.

But I did have to adjust how I approach people and how I follow up with people.

So my thinking is, you know.

Like you invited me on this show, right?

I'm like, cool, I love the idea of going on your show and being the guest and somebody's gonna ask me questions for a change and I get to tell somebody my opinions.

It's like exciting for me, right?

And it was at the beginning, I overestimated people's enthusiasm for that, right?

Because I just think it's the coolest thing in the world.

Other people, some people do too.

I mean, I've talked to plenty of people that are like, oh my God, thank you, this is so fun.

Like that's great, but not everybody's like that.

So I think the mistake I made was assuming that everybody would be as excited about this process.

Some people, they're just shy.

Some people don't feel comfortable doing this.

They don't feel comfortable having their conversations be public, you know.

So when I started, you know, I just assumed everybody I reached out to be like, heck yeah, I'm gonna be on your pod, you know.

And you and I talked about this offline, you know, like, what's the percentage of people that respond?

Yes, it's not high.

And maybe it says, what I do is I know in the show, I'm asking people to share about their marketing strategy.

Some people don't want to do that.

There's all different reasons.

So I had to adjust not only how I approach people and make sure that I gave them a little bit more information on why it.

And frame it in a way that they feel like, Oh, this has some benefit for me, just beyond my ego, their ego, right.

Um, but, but also in following up, like, I just assumed that if I post it on LinkedIn and tag somebody and let them know about that, there's just going to be immediate like, thanks Marcus and commenting and share.

No, right.

I have to make it really easy for them to find the links and to have it all.

But these are, these were relatively easy problems to fix.

It just was more of a thing where I realized, Oh, okay.

Like.

I'm not, it's not the main focus for some of these people like it is for me.

And I have to accommodate that, make sure that I'm making it.

Yeah, I'll give you a practical example.

I would post the podcast itself and then I'd post on YouTube, the video clip, and then I'd post on LinkedIn, three or four different links, whatever it was.

And I'd take those links and I'd send it in a LinkedIn message to the person, usually because I'm connected with them.

Well, that's kind of messy, right?

Not everybody is going to always be checking their mess.

It's maybe not as easy for them as possible.

So now I take everything and I have a Google Doc.

They all, all the links are in there.

There's some verbiage at the beginning.

It's just a little bit more like taking their perspective and account as opposed to assuming they're just like waiting at their computer for my LinkedIn posts to hit.

You know, so yeah.

But again, easy fix, easy fix.

Yeah, it's understanding the expectations.

And I ran into the same thing.

It's not every share, every post, it just varies by person.

And it's no one's out to get you, but it varies.

Like there's different enthusiasms for it.

So I think that's a great thing to understand and learn from it.

For people listening, yeah, that just, it's important to understand it going in.

You have to look at it from very much the long perspective.

You're having a conversation, you're creating some content you can use forever.

It just might not go big initially or you just have to wait and see.

And going big too, it's like what going big might mean to one person could be totally different to somebody else.

So if you're doing a podcast or starting a podcast with the intention of having mass appeal, let's say you're doing a podcast about pop culture or something and you really want to have a huge audience, you know, that's a very different approach or goal than if you have, if you're a copywriter and content creator and you're just happy having a handful of ongoing clients, it's going to keep you busy as you could ever be.

I don't need a ton of downloads in order for this show to be very successful as far as what my intention is because I get to create great content or at least hopefully great content from it.

I get to get to repurpose it.

So what you think is successful could be different depending on what your ultimate goal is.

But just again, keep it in mind that whatever it is you create, hopefully you really enjoy it.

And if you can make that...

easier for everybody else involved, particularly your guests.

They definitely, I imagine, I would appreciate it as a guest, you know, and I imagine they do too.

Yeah, just reducing the friction, making it easy for them.

Yeah, anything you can do for that is huge.

And yeah, I think it's understanding the goals too.

So if you're listening, the goal, I mean, it's great if you wanna have 10,000 downloads a year or more, but that doesn't make your podcast successful.

Really, it's what...

do you want the podcast to do?

Is it, I want to build relationships, I want to create some inbound leads maybe, I just want, you know, if I get 100 downloads on an episode, that's huge, and I know, man, I know I've got some seriously, you know, I've got fans in that group that I know will reach out for the business.

So yeah, goals are very different.

for everybody.

And I think going into it, if you're a business and you're thinking about podcasting, it has lots of benefits, but you need to think through what your goals are.

Otherwise you can run into trouble.

And it also brings up something that I saw a lot, I'm sure you saw a lot too in the last couple of years on LinkedIn and maybe it's still going around, but this whole question is, is podcasting dead?

Which is a term in general when it's used that just drives me crazy.

Like is email marketing dead?

It's like, nothing's dead, you know what I mean?

But the podcasting, is podcasting dead debate?

It's like.

Look, if you started a podcast five years ago in the B2B space, you're way ahead of the game, but you probably didn't have many people even looking for a podcast in the B2B space.

So you're dealing with a different problem.

If you're doing it now in 2023 with how many millions or one point, whatever million podcasts?

Fine.

It's not dead.

If you're trying to do something exactly like somebody else, if you want to try to be the next Joe Rogan or Mark Maron or Rick Rubin, maybe you're going to have a problem because they're already doing that.

Right.

The whole issue is, A, this is where a niche opportunity is.

I mean, if you're gonna, the challenge of creating a pop culture podcast is very different than the challenge of creating something about people that have, have an ease puppies like I do, right?

There might be a podcast about that, I don't know.

So you're thinking about like, whatever the goal is, have a goal for sure.

I mean, if it's traffic, it's downloads, it's relationships, but ultimately, Having a goal of I want to have a lot of downloads or whatever it is isn't what's going to make a good podcast.

It's the fundamentals of what makes something compelling, why am I interested in it?

What will actually be real and authentic and passion and whatever it is that you feel makes a good episode.

And make that for one person, meaning you have an idea like that persona of who's going to really enjoy this.

if it's not going to be enjoyed by one person, it's not going to be enjoyed by 10,000 people.

When we think about building an audience, audience can be this amorphous kind of concept that we're trying to make it for the people.

There's no such thing.

Make it for somebody who you just go, oh, they're going to love this, which is usually yourself.

Then the rest of it is really, you still promote it, you do everything you can to get it out there, and of course you do the work.

The rest of it is really out of your hands.

The things that's gonna click, that serendipity again, you're not gonna be able to control that.

What you can control is you're bringing the best of yourself to it and doing the best you can in each episode.

That is true.

And one of the things that I find fascinating, you brought that up, you know, in that discussion of lots of downloads, small downloads, immediately, you know, I think of The Long Tale, the book by Chris Anderson.

And if you haven't read it, I just, I can't encourage you enough to go read it.

It was written like 2006, 2007, then it was like revised in 2009.

So like, he wrote that before, right at the beginning of YouTube, where the revision was, like the first one, like the first iPhone, I don't know if the iPhone had come out yet.

And he's literally laying the groundwork for everything we see now.

From the fact that, you know, he talks about the long, the short tail is that front end, what would be network television in the 1970s, 1980s.

You had to get in the top 20 episodes, you know, it shows where you were nothing, you know, the top 100 hits.

And now the sky's the limit, right?

It lower, lower audience, lower volume, but you can be anywhere on the spectrum.

The spectrum was always there.

You can just, now you can.

you can reach that audience.

Yeah, yeah.

Well, one thing to add to that, too, is if I'm remembering the book, it's been a few years since I read it.

But one point I think he made, too, was that the long tail when you have people like me on the far end of that, right?

Very small audience, very niche audience.

The real players who benefit from a long tail are the Amazon dot coms, are the YouTube, Google.

et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, right?

Because they're getting a piece of all of it, right?

So when you think about who, you know, I think about LinkedIn in this sense.

LinkedIn, you know, is a great tool.

I mean, I spend every, I'm on it every day and it's critical to what I do, but LinkedIn is in the business of keeping us on LinkedIn.

And don't for a second think that that's not what they're doing, right?

So the whole chasing the algorithm, all that, they, LinkedIn doesn't care if I only get one like on my post today.

Like they don't care because they've got a million, 10 million gazillion of Marcus's out there, right?

So just think of that in terms of also, when you think about taking advice from anybody, including me, uh, about podcasting, right?

Is that, you know, you have to do it for your reasons.

and be careful when you're talking about platforms and like which, you know, hosting you should do.

They're all gonna make it seem like everybody's gonna get rich doing a podcast and everybody, it's like, no, we're not, but that's fine, that's okay.

We don't always have to, you know, it's just not how the long tail and short tail work.

But if you're cool with that and you realize that you can carve out your own little space by doing something that only you would wanna do in that sense, right?

Just your own little unique spin on it.

then it's wonderful.

But if you're starting with something that's gonna be like your authentic little space and you're thinking you're gonna be on the front end of that, you're gonna be competing with the Joe Rogan's or whatever, maybe you'll get there.

But if that's your only intention about, that's your whole reason for doing it, it might not be a great journey.

a hard road.

Yes.

Because it's just too much work if you are not, if you're not wanting to do it.

It's just work.

And it's also the wrong reason, right?

It's like, yes, we all wanna be successful, of course.

Like, you know, that's a no brainer.

Yes, we wanna succeed.

I would love to post on LinkedIn and have thousands of people like applauding every thought that comes out of my head, of course, right?

But if that's my only intention for doing something, that means I'm pandering.

That means I'm only thinking about what does the algorithm like or what do podcast audiences like right now?

For me, that's not something worth investing months or years of my life into because as every minute I'm sweating what's gotta be popular, is a minute I can't actually think about what it is that I have to bring out.

So what is my voice?

What is my unique contribution?

And it's that unique contribution that might hit, might get popular, might not get popular, whatever it is, but that's what we have to share in this medium.

And that's the opportunity for anybody listening you're thinking about this, do it your own way.

Do it the best you can, take advice as far as production value, like make it good.

Don't think you have to do it the way somebody else has to do it, because they've already done that.

You can do it your way.

So true.

And just as we're winding down here, kind of last question before the wrap up, one takeaway that you would like to leave people with who maybe they're a business, they're thinking about starting a podcast, and they're like trying to figure out whether to make the jump or not.

Just one takeaway for them.

Think in terms of prototypes, right?

So there's a, if you're in the SaaS space or tech space in B2B, you're very familiar with the, minimum viable, minimally viable product or version or whatever you wanna call it.

But basically, if you're thinking about doing this and you're thinking about it has to be like this perfect iteration, because if you put it out there and then you're embarrassed and it's not great and people won't listen, start with a prototype, meaning go on Zoom.

with somebody you wanna talk to and record it.

Take that, which everybody can do.

We're all on Zoom all the time.

You know how to record, right?

Boom, like 99% of the people listening to this know how to do that.

Start there.

If you haven't edited anything, take that recording, that video, which has audio.

Now you have YouTube clips you could create.

You have all this stuff you could do, right?

Take that audio and video and use Riverside or use whatever software that you can get and just play around with it.

and say, I'm gonna create an episode.

I don't have a name for it yet, maybe.

I don't know what I'm gonna, any of that stuff, but I'm gonna create an episode with somebody who I find interesting, maybe a coworker or a client or a friend, and just create that prototype and see what you come up with.

And you might be surprised that A, knowing that you don't have to put it out into the world, it takes all the pressure off.

You don't have to figure out the right name or any of that.

And you might find that.

creating that prototype, you look at that end recording and say, oh wow, I didn't know how to edit before this, or I didn't know how to do.

I've got it.

Now I just have to take that and repeat it, or I have to now fill in the blanks elsewhere.

But if you take away the pressure of having the pilot episode, that's going to go on prime time, right?

It might make it easier and a lot more fun and a lot more authentic for you.

Just go like, I'm going to create something the way I want to create and just see what happens.

Worst case scenario is to record it and you share it on YouTube or you do as a video, two-minute video on LinkedIn and it's the end of it.

Best case scenario, you caught the bug and now you want to do a five-day-a-week podcast like me.

I think that's wonderful.

Just create a prototype.

Just try an episode.

Just record it.

Fiddle with it.

Best with it.

Just kind of get your hands dirty, so to speak, right?

Just get involved just to see what it's like.

And there's, as you say, there's no downside.

It's just learning.

It's just learning.

And if none of this stuff appeals to you, I could probably not be listening to this show anyway, right?

But if, let's say somebody's just happening upon it, if this stuff just sounds like drudgery, don't do it.

Like just don't do it.

If this sounds like it just, oh my God, like this is just hard work, you're probably not gonna enjoy it.

Maybe you will.

Still give it a shot if it's palatable, but this is something that should be something that the- the joy in this and the enjoyment and the enthusiasm and the talent and the skills all come into play in this.

So there's no rule that I have to do it.

Find what works for you.

But if there's even a little bit curiosity about it and you're just holding back because it seems overwhelming or you're shy, try it.

And again, there's no downside.

That is so true.

And so for everybody listening who wants to know more about you, more about your podcast, where would you like them to go?

So best place is my website.

So it's marcushaller.com, M-A-R-C-U-S-S-C-H-A-L-L-E-R.com.

It's information, but what I do is a freelancer, kind of services I have, but then there's a link to the podcast as well.

And there's a link to my LinkedIn, so anybody listening, feel free to connect with me on LinkedIn as well.

You know, if you're curious about like how to repurpose stuff or how I've been approaching the podcast, you can kind of see how I create these carousels and different types of formats.

So it might be just fun to kind of poke around there.

So if you're listening, Marcus Schaller.com, I'm gonna put that in the show notes with some other links, make sure to check it out.

Definitely check out his podcast, Attract Your Ideal Customers.

Marcus, this has been a blast.

It's just been fun.

I always enjoy having conversations with you, especially when we're dealing with podcasts.

Me too.

And you know, I get to at the end of this conversation, I don't have to worry about editing it or putting it out or anything.

So it's just like, it's, it's yeah.

Bonus.

Oh, I love it.

Oh, cool.

Well, thanks for joining me today.

Thank you.

Me and my mouse are at loggerheads right now.

And I'm sure there is, and this is why we edit.

Yes.