It's Marketing's Fault

Robert Ingalls [0:00 - 1:15]: But I think the major problem, because I see it all the time, the major problem is a misconception as to what a lawyers podcast is. So many of them think that it's something like what Joe Rogan's doing. They're just having a talk show. They're gonna have a talk show. What are we gonna talk about on our talk show that any of our, like, how does that turn into business for us? How does that make us money? And that is where I try to spend some of my time, is educating my prospects in the marketplace of that's not what we're doing. We are creating content that will either speak directly to the pain points of prospects are having, so they get to know us a little bit better, like us, hopefully start to trust us a little bit. And at whatever point they are in our funnel, this is going to nurture them. This is going to bring them further along in that funnel so they're ready. They're going to get over that friction. They're going to start talking to us and, or we're going to create content for our referral sources that speak directly to their pain points. It's going to get them to know us, like us and trust us, perhaps send us business, bring us cases and thought leadership things. That's what a lot of my big firms do. But so many attorneys are stuck on that first one we talked about. They think they don't understand what a podcast really would be for a law firm.

Eric Rutherford [1:15 - 1:39]: Welcome to it's Marketing's fault, the podcast where we discuss how to do marketing the right way. I'm your host, Eric Rutherford, and I am pumped because I have with me Robert Ingalls. He is the founder and CEO of Law Pods, which helps busy attorneys create and promote world class podcast content that builds relationships and drives revenue. Robert, welcome to the show.

Robert Ingalls [1:39 - 1:53]: It is such a pleasure to be here. It's been really cool. I feel like I've known you a lot longer than I have, because every time we talk, we just, like, immediately start talking about all the toys that we play with and the things that we're doing. So it's like we've gained a lot of ground in a short period of time.

Eric Rutherford [1:53 - 2:30]: It is like we, like, we had a conversation last week, and even before we hit record, we're like, geeking out over different things, like teleprompters and cameras and all this stuff, plus just podcasting in general. So, yeah, definite, definite kindred spirit. Like, we could just talk forever, I think. So let me, let me just jump in because you're talking about law pods. You're talking about attorney podcasting. Let's just, let's just take a step back and talk about marketing in general. So what's something that attorneys just misunderstand about marketing, but, like, if they would just embrace it, it would just totally grow their firms?

Robert Ingalls [2:30 - 5:39]: One of the biggest ones I see is there's, there's a big failure to differentiate. And they, and I, and I feel like I don't want to disparage anyone the practice, but I've been there. I've sat in the seat. I spent seven years trying to run a practice and making those same mistakes of, you want to blend in, you've got this community. And maybe blend in is probably not the word we're thinking. We're not thinking we want to blend in, but we don't want to stand out and have fingers pointed at us, because that's something that you see in the legal community is it's kind of this relatively tight knit community, and there's people forwarding around. Oh, did you see this person who got disciplined or disbarred? And also, did you see this, like, hilariously terrible piece of marketing that this other attorney's doing? Just a lot of, like, chuckling, and people get afraid of that, especially young people. They get afraid to stand out and be different. And the legal community is always a decade or two behind almost everyone else in almost everything else. And it's, and so when it comes to marketing, that is, that's the case as well. And there's this, there's a lot of rules around marketing for attorneys, the bar of every state. I mean, some states are worse than others. I feel like it's Kentucky seems like they let people do anything because I've seen some of those commercials, and they are wild. And the, but there's, so you've got these rules, professional ethics that you can't do this, you can't do that, and your font has to be this big and a lot of stuff to keep you scared about your marketing, but you also just don't want to go too far. There's a very, there's a tendency towards being conservative in your marketing. You don't want to be too wild. You want to be seen as professional and respectable, and I get that. But at the same time, people do business with people that they like, people that they feel like they can trust. And if you don't have any differentiators, it's going to be very difficult for someone to make a decision on whether or not you are their attorney. Because they go to one website, they see, we've been practicing law for 9000 years combined, and we have a lot of books. Look at us, sit in front of all of our books and talk about your legal issues and how much we care. And so it all starts to run together. And I've spent a lot of time doing audits of these sites and looking, and there's so few key differentiators that people actually care about. What are you going to do for me? Because they have a problem. What are you going to do for me and people? I think that's the problem. You need to do something that helps you stand out. And yeah, it might turn off some people, but that's the cost of doing business when you. Because you're also going to turn on people that go, that is my attorney. That's, that feels like someone I can talk to that doesn't feel like someone wearing white shoes and driving a Bentley who is gonna push me off on some untrained associate and never think about me again.

Eric Rutherford [5:39 - 6:05]: Yeah, it's fascinating. As I've looked at and talked with attorneys and different things, like, it feels like you could just add a different image, like a different photograph to every website and like they're all the same. Like they all sound the same. They all take. You could just replace the images, like, honestly with honestly with just like, yeah.

Robert Ingalls [6:05 - 6:10]: I feel like I'm looking at stock photos sometimes when I'm looking at law firm websites.

Eric Rutherford [6:10 - 6:35]: Yeah. And especially if you're listening and you've never looked for an attorney in whatever, like wherever you need it. Like, yeah, it's maddening because it's like, okay, I know when they were certified this year, they've been doing it for this long and that's it. Like, I'm just comparing. I have nothing to compare.

Robert Ingalls [6:35 - 6:39]: Yeah, man. Like, who are you?

Eric Rutherford [6:39 - 6:39]: What's up?

Robert Ingalls [6:39 - 6:43]: Like, I want to know a little bit about who you are. Yeah, tell me something.

Eric Rutherford [6:43 - 6:43]: Yeah, give me a second.

Robert Ingalls [6:43 - 7:34]: Give me a reason to think that you are. Because I assume that the lawyers are smart and frequently, like, there's, there's going to be several lawyers that you're going to come across and all are probably going to do a very capable job of working on your case. And that is where it's like, okay, which one is the best for me? Because a lot of them are going to say, we're the best. We're going to take care of you. We're the ones that actually care. These guys don't care. They just want your money. And I think there's a lot of attorneys out there that actually do care. They're in it for the right reasons. They really have a concern for the quality of life of their clients and the outcome that they get in serving justice. Okay. Now you've got those people who all do have solid values. Now, what's the differentiator? What's going to make me go with one over the other? And that is where I think content comes into play. Tell them who you are.

Eric Rutherford [7:34 - 8:07]: So do you think like, the size of the area geographically, population in which you practice can have an impact on that? Because if you're a small town attorney versus say, you know, you are practicing in a large metro area like Atlanta, Nashville, Raleigh, where you're at, you know, any of the, or Chicago does. Is it the bigger the area, the more you need to focus on content, or does everybody need to really kind of think through it?

Robert Ingalls [8:09 - 10:44]: The smaller areas, I'm from one of those really small areas where there's not that many attorneys. You don't see a ton of legal marketing. There's, there tends to be one personal injury attorney in town that does all the marketing. Now there's plenty of personal injury attorneys in town and they're getting cases, but there's one that's, that's the one on the billboards, that's the one on the television. And so there's not a ton of marketing because most attorneys can hang their shingle. And it's not to say it's not hard work, of course it is. But they, they don't face the kind of competition that you're going to face in somewhere like Charlotte or somewhere like Atlanta, where if you're coming up and you want to hang a shingle and you want to start practicing, you're going to have to build a book. And it's not going to be easy and it's not going to be fast. And you're going to have to find a way to get out there. You're going to have to hustle. You're going to have to differentiate. And so that's one of the reasons you see more innovative marketing coming out of places like that, because they have to. It reminds me of when I have lived in North Carolina my whole life, but I've traveled all around in the United States, and I loved when I was a kid going to New York City because it was like nothing I'd ever seen before. Everywhere you go, somebody is hustling something, somebody is working an angle, somebody's selling candy on the corner while they're, you know, got one baby in one arm and they're haggling with the other, and somebody's selling hot dogs, and there's just everyone everywhere, no matter how old you are, no matter how young you are, has got a hustle, and they've got a tagline that they're using. You know, outside the. Outside Yankee Stadium, the guys selling hats and hot dogs, like, get your hot dogs here better than the stadium dogs. Like, they're hustling. And I love that. Not, not necessarily that I love that all the time in New York City, but I love that hustle because they have to. You've got to stand out if you want to succeed. And conversely, I was driving through a stopping center here not long ago, and there was a young kid sitting on the corner with a bunch of flowers, sitting there looking at his phone, and, like, that's the opposite of what you'd see in New York. They would be annoyingly aggressive. They'd be, like, putting it in your window, trying to give it to you. And I'm guessing he must sell some or he wouldn't sit there day to day. But it was. I mean, I think it kind of exemplifies the question you were asking. It is a very different need. When you have a saturated market, you've got to be different.

Eric Rutherford [10:45 - 11:18]: Yeah, that's something I've just kind of noticed. And talking with people, it's like, wow, there's almost this, especially smaller areas, this idea of, well, in some ways, it works a little bit like real estate, too, where there's, you just, everybody works off referral. The smaller the area you get referred. Once you get the book of business, you just become the source, because there's only so many. But the bigger the area, the more you do have to hustle in order to get your name out there, because you can't rely on referrals at that point.

Robert Ingalls [11:18 - 11:46]: It's a lot harder to build that book of referrals. It's certainly very hard in the beginning. Cause you get into the market, and everybody, they kind of already have a person, and law is a. That's a profession that is maybe not the oldest profession, but it's probably second, and it's been around a really long time. People have been doing it for generations, and you step into that market, and you're over your head already, and you gotta figure it out and you gotta hustle.

Eric Rutherford [11:46 - 12:15]: So do you think, especially new attorneys. So they've just, they've just come out of law school. They just passed the bar. Do you think they are more open to marketing and podcasting? Because obviously because of the generation, right? Because they're much younger. Like, they are very, they're very digital, right? I mean, I'm 50, right? I remember pre Internet, but, like, everybody graduating now is like, that's just, like, that's all.

Robert Ingalls [12:16 - 12:26]: What do you mean? You couldn't just know something when you had a question? What do you mean? You had to just go for months not knowing what the horse in the neverending story's name was exactly. What do you mean?

Eric Rutherford [12:27 - 12:36]: I know, like, I know we're. I know. I promise. For everybody listening, like, I promise that's historically accurate. Like, you know, there was a time, yeah.

Robert Ingalls [12:36 - 12:41]: You call people at 03:00 a.m. and be like, I can't stand it. Please tell me what the answer to this thing is, seriously.

Eric Rutherford [12:41 - 13:06]: Or you missed. You missed the score to the game, and you can't find out till the next day when the newspaper comes out. So, like, it's weird, but like, that, that was life. We got a whole generation of people now that are social media, very digital. Do you think that's going to change the game in terms of how attorneys think through marketing and especially podcasts?

Robert Ingalls [13:06 - 15:08]: It has, I see it now, and this is, you know, I'll speak from my anecdotal experience. I am seeing firms now wherever I, they have hired new grads people out for just a couple of years, and these attorneys are selling the ideas to the established attorneys. Right now, I'm starting to work with a firm where I've got two fresh grads. They've been out only a couple years, and they're leading the charge. And they met with me a couple times. They learned about what we were doing. They brought it to the senior attorneys. Then we got on a call with them and help them understand it. These younger attorneys in a lot of firms are starting to lead that charge. Like, hey, this is digital marketing that works. And it will connect with a younger generation, certainly. But we're seeing the demographics every single year, across every demographic, we're seeing a rise in consumption and a change in consumer behavior. And that, I think, is helping sell it because people are realizing, okay, everyone is changing their consumption habits in the way that they get information and audio continues to grow, and these younger people know it because that's their life. They have already shifted their behavior to match that to where they understand that if they have a problem, there's probably a podcast that will talk to them about it. They can learn something specific. They can learn whether it's just something they want to learn historically. They want to learn about something that happened in 1983. There's probably ten episodes on it that somebody did. And if you want an answer to a question, there's going to be something out there like that for you. And they have started using those in their own firms, and they've seen results, which is driving the competition to start to look around and go, maybe we should pay attention to this, too.

Eric Rutherford [15:09 - 15:39]: So with, let's say, established firms, they've been in business for years. They have that solid book of business, and then they're seeing this competition, but, well, they're having both new hires. But then do they, do these firms feel like they don't need to worry about it because they've got enough business, or are they trying to grow their firms? It's just one of those. I'm just curious. Or is it, like, I need. I need to figure out how to grow my firm? Does that question make sense?

Robert Ingalls [15:39 - 18:57]: It does, Eric. They didn't need a website. You have to remember who we're dealing with. They didn't need a website. That's not how they got business. They didn't need social media or a blog. That's not. No, that's not people, our clients don't want that. That's not how they do things. That's not what they need. Right. And I don't say that to make too much fun, because I get it. Things are a certain way, and they were right. But then it changed, and I get it. I don't like it. Like, I'm at a certain. I'm 44 now, and I really didn't think this was going to happen, but I. I get pretty unreasonably frustrated when things change now. Like, it's just, this is how it is. This is how I like it. It works like this. Why are you making this more complicated than it needs to be? I'm already there. And that's just. I mean, I get it. But that is the struggle right now is when I first started this business, when I really first started trying to get clients in 2018, I put a list together of people that I knew in town, who I could call, could email, who would know my name and know who I am, and about 50 names at first. And I just going through, just emailing. Hey, I'd love to just set up a conversation. I don't know, you're trying to sell. It's like, hey, I just love to talk to you, get your feedback, see what you think. I couldnt get people I know to even respond to my emails, and then the ones that would respond to my emails were just like, meh. And I dont fault them because this is 2018. This is pretty silly at this point, really. Whos going to listen to a lawyer's podcast? But even now we fast forward, its a thriving industry. I have a thriving business. Theres still a lot, I would venture to say majority easily of firms that are still convinced that this isn't something they need. This is not how they get business. No one needs to listen to their firm's podcast. But I think the major problem, because I see it all the time, the major problem is a misconception as to what a lawyer's podcast is. So many of them think that it's something like what Joe Rogan's doing. They're just having a talk show. They're gonna have a talk show. What are we gonna talk about on our talk show that any of our, like, how does that turn into business for us? How does that make us money? And, and that is where I try to spend some of my time, is educating my, my prospects in the marketplace of that's not what we're doing. We are creating content that will either speak directly to the pain points our prospects are having. So they get to know us a little bit better, like us, hopefully start to trust us a little bit. And at whatever point they are in our funnel, this is going to nurture them, this is going to bring them further along in that funnel. So they're ready. They're going to get over that friction. They're going to start talking to us, or we're going to create content for our referral sources that speak directly to their pain points. That's going to get them to know us, like us and trust us, perhaps send us business, bring us cases and thought leadership things. That's what a lot of my big firms do. But so many attorneys are stuck on that first one we talked about. They don't understand what a podcast really would be for a law firm.

Eric Rutherford [18:57 - 19:39]: That's huge, because I can, I can totally see this, this misconception just stopping them. Like, why do I need this? Because it's not going to help me. Is it that, again, this is sort of in that mindset of, do they, do they think of needing a sales funnel, like, or a marketing funnel or like, just from a, just from a, just a business standpoint? You know, I know you go to a lot, you know, you go a lot of other industries. You know, there's, there's always this sales funnel. There's this progression that you're trying to get through. Are, do attorneys and firms think of that, or is that that too completely outside sort of their paradigm?

Robert Ingalls [19:39 - 24:44]: No. A lot of them get it. A lot of them are very savvy marketers. Okay. There's, I, I come across this specific scenario a lot. I have clients that fall right into this bucket where one of the attorneys at the firm is a really savvy marketer and they step out from practicing law a lot and they start to be the face of the business. They start working with the vendors and they spend a lot of their time working on the business instead of working in the business. And they really get it. They could probably speak more eloquently on marketing in the legal field than I could by far, because I am in a very narrow niche in legal marketing. And some of these lawyers that are running these firms, they understand SEO on a really profound level in content marketing and web design. They really get how leads are getting into their funnel, where they're coming in, what the cost of those leads are, the best ways to nurture them based on the kind of lead it is and conversion tactics and all of it. So some of them really, really get it. A lot of them don't, though. And it's. I understand why they don't. Because people that start firms, it happens a variety of different ways. They'll come from a really big law firm and they'll say, okay, I'm ready to do my own thing. I've created this book that's going to follow me of business. And they start their firms. Some of them are coming out of law school and they're starting firms. Some of them are leaving medium sized firms after a while. And running a law firm as a business is so much different than practicing law. It's two completely different skill sets. And just working in a law firm, even if you work there 20 years, you're going to pick up some of it. But unless you're really intentional about paying attention to that side of the business, there's a lot you're not going to know. And it really is, it's a whole other job to think about marketing. And so you have these attorneys that get into these firms and they start their network. They've got a decent network, they've got some referrals coming in, but they don't understand the marketing side. And then they start looking at that and they start talking to vendors and they're like, $20,000. What are you talking about? Like that just blows their mind. And I have, like, I know this intimately because I have these conversations with people I know that just cant get their head around why you would spend that much money and not know exactly that that dollar is going to turn into another tomorrow. Right. And thats really scary for them. And I get that. Ive been there like I signed a deal worth like $8,000 when I was an attorney and I got very little out of it. Very, very little. And that scared me really bad because im like, oh, my God, these people are selling snake oil. And because what they sold me was not what they gave me. And I think every lawyer has been burned like that, especially if you pay that ignorance tax where you don't really know. You work with a cheaper vendor and they promise you the world and you pay them and they give you nothing. And then they try to tell you that they actually did give you something and you're like, well point it out. Right. And so you have these situations with these young lawyers and they just can't get their head around it or even, not even young, just lawyers that are still getting their head around marketing and they'll say, I just can't, I just can't spend that kind of money. And that is, that mindset is going to cripple them because you have to market, you have to differentiate, you have to move if you're going to do anything. And one of my clients said something a few years ago that I took to heart and I love it. He said, marketing is a partner. Marketing gets paid every year no matter what. Like, we don't, there's never a down year where marketing doesn't get paid. We take home less money some years. So marketing gets paid. Marketing is a partner, and if we stop paying that partner, we stop having a business. And I just thought that was such a beautiful way to look at it because that's exactly, I mean, he's been a mentor to me because that's how I think about it. We spend a lot of money marketing, and I don't think about it as losing money. I think about it as investing in our brand. And some of it comes back a little quicker. Some of it is going to take years to really reap the rewards of it. And I get it. It's hard. But when you start looking at your money different, it helps when you start. Mike Michalowicz wrote a book called profit first that I think can help people is every dollar that comes in, you get your little piece, 20%, whatever the number is. You get your piece, marketing gets its piece, taxes operating. And that way when it's time to spend money on marketing, marketing already has its bucket and you're not looking for money to pay. And that's been helpful.

Eric Rutherford [24:44 - 25:45]: It is. And for everybody listening, that's a wonderful book. Can't recommend it enough. I'll drop a link to that in the show notes as well. But that's true. It's like without marketing, your company will die and your firm will die. Like, you either commit to the marketing or not. It can be scary, and especially with podcasts. I can totally believe that the scariness with podcasts because it is hard, like you were saying, to say, okay, for every dollar I spend on a podcast, I'm going to get two back. Like, there's no direct correlation in that regard or it's really hard to get there. Is that. So? How do you, how do you sort of broach that or get them thinking outside the box? Is that like, okay, the, the goal is the podcast gives you content, it builds trust, and you'll see it down the road, but you're not going to be able to tie like a one to one. How do you, how do you navigate that conversation?

Robert Ingalls [25:45 - 28:19]: Yeah, this is so ultimately, I don't have that conversation too much anymore, and I used to have it a lot, and I will, I will. It's not that I want to ignore that conversation. I just had a mentor that really helped me get my head around it because I was telling him that I'm having a problem with that specific question, with helping people understand that, you know, it's content marketing, it's not the same as pay per click and SEO. It's a long strategy. And he said, some people are going to get it and some people aren't. He said, spend your time on the people that get it already. And that changed my business because I started thinking about my prospects very differently. And when I was dealing with people that were, that it was going to be very hard that you're going to have this drawn out sales process and it's going to be a lot of back and forth because they really don't get the value prop. And I started focusing on people that already understood it, people. That's one of the reasons I ended up in the trial lawyer space, because it's a hyper competitive space and it's hyper competitive because there are, you can hit a lot of dingers in the plane of trial or space, whereas some other spaces, you don't get those same big wins where it's a lot of hourly work sometimes, and you're capped, you're never going to make $800 million verdict like, it's just, that's not the thing that happens generally in a lot of firms. And these trial lawyers have been at this for so long, they've been competitive for so long that they get it. They know that they have to spend money. They're, they're pretty savvy at this point. They know they have to spend money on marketing. They understand the different kinds of marketing and they're much more likely to want to do something new, to do something that'll help them stand out, help them get an edge on them in the marketplace. And so having conversations with people that already get it has proven to be a lot easier because you're right, there's a lot of people out there that just, it's a struggle. And I do see it as my job to help educate that marketplace. But at the same time, you can't be everywhere at once in a business. Right. And I found it to be a lot more, a lot better use of my time in the short term for growth and profit, ability to focus on the kind of clients that I was most likely to be able to serve best at this point in time.

Eric Rutherford [28:19 - 29:00]: That's such a brilliant statement of some people get it. Some people don't start working with the ones that get it. Like, that is so simple and so profound. And yet, like you said that I went, yeah, oh, my word. What? Like, like the light bulbs went off. But I think so much we are, especially when dealing with podcasts, we're trying to like convert and convince people this is the right way to go, that, that we need to narrow the, like, narrow the scope and go, okay, some people already get it. Like, that's a whole lot easier.

Robert Ingalls [29:00 - 29:54]: Yeah, none of those. None. No one on that list of people that I emailed to. Well, I don't want to say no one. Now that I think back to it, I did work with one guy and he was super fun. But on that entire list of people that I knew that I was emailing, I worked with one person that I was chasing because that was, I was, and that's not, it has nothing to do with them and everything to do with the market. They are not the ideal client right now. They're not the attorneys that I should be focusing on. And that's all I focused on in the early days because, I mean, part of that's mindset, I just didn't, I didn't, who am I? I don't know, these, like, other firms, these bigger firms, why would they trust me? And so I wasn't even trying for these big firms. And. But once I was able to figure out who my target market was and start spending my time chasing them, that's a game changer.

Eric Rutherford [29:54 - 30:12]: Yeah, that's huge, because then, like, they're ready for the conversation and they're ready to move forward with it versus everybody else who's like, you know, not today. It's the 2% that are ready to buy versus the 98% that aren't or a much smaller percentage that are ready to buy.

Robert Ingalls [30:12 - 30:18]: Right. Your conversions are going to be a lot higher if you get people who are ready to convert.

Eric Rutherford [30:18 - 31:03]: Absolutely. So with that, it sounds like you switched your focus not only on looking for open to podcasting, but even further in terms of. Of the practices that you are going after. Do you see not simply, like, from an age demographic perspective, do you see certain practice areas that are much more open to podcasting? I know you said you started focusing on trial lawyers because they're like, man, we get it. We're competitive. Like, are there others that fit that bill? And conversely, are there some that are like. Like they are. In 30 years, they may be ready.

Robert Ingalls [31:03 - 34:07]: Yeah. I will give you my highly anecdotal experience because I niche down relatively quickly in the scheme of business years. But in my experience, I've seen a lot of family law attorneys with podcasts. I have worked for two, I think, and I've talked to a lot, and they have just. They. Some of them have done it themselves. They've gone with much cheaper competitors, and I don't hold that against them. Like, people should make the decision that's right for them. I don't think there's one right way to do it, but ultimately, what I have discovered is they're less likely to want to spend the money that it would take to get a podcast that we would make them. And I found that in criminal law. I found it in wills, trusts, estates, because I've had these conversations with these practitioners, and again, very anecdotal, these are the people I've talked to. These are the patterns I've seen. I never found myself chasing any of those specific practice areas very hard. And so there could be a really nice market that I missed of high end attorneys that want to spend that money. But when I was, you know, one of the reasons I ended up in personal injury and trial lawyers is because I did the big, cold outreach with email and LinkedIn and almost all my bites that turned into clients were plaintiff attorneys in the injury space, and that showed me something. And then I started working with them, and I learned a little bit more, and I went, oh, I think that this is a space I should just pay more attention to. And so I wasn't getting, I'd get a lot of tire kickers and have a lot of conversations, but I wasn't having conversations that were turning into business. And even some of the clients I had in some of the other fields were, they were much tighter with their budgets. And again, this might have just been my experience, but like a bad quarter would, we'd be at the table trying to renegotiate. And from a business perspective, that's not the kind of client I want. I want to work with somebody who is ready to do the work. They understand what it costs, and we're in this for the long haul to pull off something incredible. And I understand. I've been that person who was like, I can't afford to pay my rent. What are you talking about? I can't pay for this. And so that's, you know, that's what I've seen. And then big law as we, we got very fortunate, our preparation met some really fortuitous opportunity in 2020, and we ended up landing a large law firm, and that opened up some doors for us in the big law space. So we've got a lot of clients that are some of the biggest firms in the world. And so we have a decent amount of our businesses in there, too. And that's been great for us.

Eric Rutherford [34:07 - 35:04]: That's huge. But what you're talking about there even of kind of experimenting of finding out where, who are the people who buy versus who are the people who may be interested, who are the people who have the money? I was talking with somebody earlier this week in the health wellness space, and they're having similar conversations with people in that space, whether they're doctors, whether they are others in that space of, and who are the people that are most likely to want this and be able to pay for it. So I think those kinds of things, and they go, I mean, they translate everywhere. You just have to be intentional about it and be, okay, we're not going to try, and we're not trying to change everybody's mind. We're going to go to the people who are interested and who can pay for it.

Robert Ingalls [35:04 - 36:22]: Right. And I mean, it's, these are the things that all business owners deal with. And I think that's something I see new business owners struggle with, is they're so stressed out that they don't have it all figured out. They hear us talk about this and we're using words they don't even understand. They don't even know what that means. And then they go worse. I think for me, when it was happening to me was I'd hear them talk about something and realize I have been doing something super wrong this whole time and, like, just perhaps making myself look bad on the business stage. Like, and none of that matters. Like, we're all, we all go through that. We all go through those spaces where we don't know what we're doing and we're hustling, and that's just, that's the cost of experience and just stay at it. Listen to these podcasts, learn more information, have those conversations. Be willing to get dirt in your face over and over and over. And the idea that we're not all still doing it, like, yeah, I'm doing okay. I have a sustainable business. It's a long way from where I want it to be, but it's sustainable. I'm very happy and I'm grateful, but that's still happening to me every day. I'm still, like, realizing I'm doing something wrong or I don't know what I'm doing every day. I'm running the biggest business I've ever run. So I'm making mistakes constantly.

Eric Rutherford [36:22 - 36:59]: It's all making it up as you go. But I think there's, I think when you can accept that and embrace that, that, for me, has been the challenge is like, okay, I'm just going to start messy and I'm going to keep going and I'm going to figure some things out. And I had some moments this week where I'm like, I'm doing this totally wrong. But so I think in any profession, like, that's, that's part of it. I think law, it seems like there's this, I got to have it all together. But I mean, that's a, I think that's with any profession, too. It's like, man, you just got to try. It's trial and error.

Robert Ingalls [36:59 - 39:23]: Law is, I can't speak for every profession, obviously, but law is unique in that. Everything you do that brings you to hold a card as a member of the bar, it scares you because you don't want to make a mistake. You don't want to do this wrong. You're going to have to answer for it. You've got this governing body that's just like, waiting to spank you. And, and, and the stakes are really high. That's the thing I don't miss is I started out as a criminal defense attorney. The stakes are really high. You make a mistake, somebody could go to jail. Like, bad things happen. And then even in civil, in the civil world, you make a mistake, somebody could lose a lot of money, they could lose their house, like, bad things happen. And the stakes are so high. And it can feel pretty cutthroat and aggressive and the types of people that are drawn to certain areas of law can make your life really difficult. And there's a reason lawyers struggle with mental health. And so that area, I think it can draw people that have that mindset, but it also, I think, cultivates that mindset of a little bit of scarcity and a little bit of like, hey, this has to be perfect. It has to be right. We have firms that we work with that have been, they are really careful, I'm careful, putting it lightly, about every word that goes out the way it looks, the way it sounds. And because they've been through a lot of turmoil with being attacked by, from other members of the bar in their state, are turning them in because they're claiming their advertising is not following the rules and they end up tied up in these, these battles and it really stresses them out. So they're really, really careful. I mean, this one of my firms is pretty small in the scheme of things in the world. And then I've got firms that have over 5000 employees that don't put, they don't put a fraction of the energy into the podcast, and not in a bad way as this small firm does, because it's up and running. It's going, they make sure it's right. But this other firm, I can't imagine the man hours that they're putting in to ensure that every t is crossed and every I is dotted.

Eric Rutherford [39:23 - 39:44]: Man, that's good to know and that's a good perspective. I got to ask too. Who listens to attorney podcasts? Is it other attorneys? Is it executives? Is it people who have legal questions like who's, who are they speaking to? Or does it really depend on the focus of the podcast?

Robert Ingalls [39:44 - 43:10]: Yeah, all of the above. Because that's the first question is, why are we making this podcast? Why are we doing this? What do we want to get out of it? Because you've got the, you know, we talked about this a little in the beginning. You've got the lead nurture model where if you're a plaintiff's attorney, you're making content that's speaking directly to the pain points your prospect has. You know what those pain points are because you have heard them in every consult. You've seen them on your search engine report. You know what people want to know. And so you make a piece of content that speaks directly to that pain point because that's what they're searching for. That's what they want to know. You make them feel better with that. So that's the kind of content you're making. And then conversely, you, you have another lawyer. I use this slide. This is one of the shows we sponsor called trial lawyer nation with Michael Cowan. He's a San Antonio trial lawyer that does focuses on trucking. He makes a podcast that is not intended for prospects to listen to. Now, they could find it. It's not even on his main firm website. It's on its own website because it's not intended for prospects. It's intended for other members of the legal community that like to try cases that want to be better trial lawyers. And he talks about being a better trial lawyer. Tips, strategies, he brings on, you know, every other episode. He brings on a very notable trial lawyer to talk about noteworthy cases and verdicts and how they did jury selection strategies and cross examination, all the things that can help educate these other lawyers. Now, he does it for a few reasons. One is he wants to give back to the community. He's been very fortunate and he has a good practice and he wants to share this knowledge. He also wants to educate those prospects or those referral sources because those people are all potential people that are going to end up with cases that they're like, well, this, either it's not in my jurisdiction or it's above my pay grade. And now they know who they can send it to, who the expert is, and they like him. There's that reciprocity of like, this guy's been giving me all this great stuff. I'm a better lawyer because of it. I've heard people come up to him and say, I tried that thing that you talked about and it worked. And so they've got that feeling where they want to give back to it. And so he's educating these referral sources. He's out there and then he writes a book. He's got all of these people that are groomed to buy this book from him. He puts on conferences and now he's selling more tickets to his conferences. And then a lot of my big firms are, they're creating content that is going to be more of a thought leadership angle where they're the person talking about the thing, you know, there's solvency two in the UK, in the European Union, they're going to talk about that. There's updates. It matters and it matters to people with very deep pockets what's going on and how this is going to affect their business and what is this new regulation going to mean for us? And you know, that we're going to talk about it every time something happens, you can set your watch that we're going to be talking about this thing. We're going to tell you how it applies to you, what the long term repercussions are going to be, how you can do X, Y and Zenith and you get to be known as the person in the space that's the expert on this. And when they are ready to make a decision, they want, they want to call and learn a little bit more. Who are they going to call? They're going to call the person they already know. Person that they know is an expert on this subject.

Eric Rutherford [43:10 - 43:37]: That's huge. So, like, as you're listening to this, remember with podcasting especially, it's, what's the end result that you want to get? Is it, are you looking for leads? Are you looking for being that thought leader? What is it? So podcasting is not just spray and pray kind of thing. It's very intentional and can be used in a lot of different ways. Robert, if people want to know more about you, more about law pods, where do you want them to go?

Robert Ingalls [43:37 - 44:10]: I mean, you type law pods in basically any search bar and you're going to find us. I was a marketer at heart my whole life. I just didn't know it. And I was very intentional about making it really easy to find me. No matter where you go, lawpods.com is where I live. I'm pretty active on LinkedIn, which if you'd have told me that ten years ago, I'm like, you're out of your mind. So you can always find me on LinkedIn. Feel free to connect with me there. I love talking about podcasting. I don't know if that came through here. It's something I'm super passionate about, so feel free to start a conversation with me at any point about that.

Eric Rutherford [44:10 - 44:25]: I love it. So lawpods.com, we're going to drop that in the show notes. We'll drop a link to his LinkedIn as well. Robert, this has been a blast. We could talk all day. I'm having to cut us off just for time reasons. But man, this has been a ball. I've learned a ton. Thanks so much.

Robert Ingalls [44:25 - 44:25]: My pleasure.