It's Marketing's Fault

Welcome to It's Marketing's Fault, the podcast where we discuss how to do marketing the right way.

I'm your host, Eric Rutherford, and I am thrilled today because I have with me Enelon Toneva.

She is the founder and CEO of the Vivian Agency, which is a boutique agency that helps clients to create, launch, and manage affiliate and influencer programs and partnerships.

Enelon, welcome to the show.

Thanks Eric for having me.

It is my pleasure.

I was excited because affiliate and influencer marketing, I've got a lot of questions in general.

And this is a great way for not only for me to be able to ask them, but to be able to share that with my audience, because I know they have lots of questions as well.

So this is going to be fun.

So let's just, yeah, let's just kind of start off.

Could you, because I think sometimes we get confused or the terms sort of blend together.

Could you provide a brief overview of what affiliate and influencer marketing entails?

Yeah, absolutely.

So there's multiple definitions, but as I see it, all of those together, partnerships or affiliate influence or referrals, I see all of them like community marketing.

So they are all connected with some kind of communities, right?

So affiliates are professional affiliates whose aim is to earn money from...

affiliate marketing.

So they could be big websites, they could be in networks like in ShareASL, AVEN Commission Junction and so on.

And their audiences who they, maybe they run ads to get traffic to their websites and their all aim is to earn money.

So they are like professional affiliates.

Then there's influencers, many times considered only in social media, so social media influencers.

and they have influence for their community in social media, so for their followers.

And there's different kind of influences.

Some of them are micro influencers, they want free products, they like the audience they have, they want more attention, they are just hobby content creators and so on.

But then there is professional social media influencers who...

who also have media kits and they are doing that as a full-time job and they are like macro influencers, like they could be like hundreds of thousands of followers and all of that.

So most influencers are considered like in YouTube, TikTok, Instagram, Facebook and so on.

Then we could also talk about the referral marketing, which is like referral programs and referrals could also be just your own happy customers who want to share the word to their friends and family.

They don't necessarily want to make money of it, but they just maybe got the coupon code that they want to share with their best friends, say like, hey, this is such a good product.

And that also works.

through community marketing logic the same way, but the aim of a referral is totally different.

They don't want to earn money or anything, they just want to share genuinely good recommendation.

And then there could be also B2B partnerships that are also marketing through community and two companies that come together, create synergy and market each other to their each other's audiences.

Excellent.

I appreciate those descriptions, because I was not aware of the differences.

Now that you say those, those make sense.

And I can see the different groups.

But in my head, I kind of jumbled all those together.

So I appreciate the distinction.

So how can a business identify the right influencers for their target audience?

Yeah, the main, the most important thing is like everything in the marketing, you have to understand your own target audience, right?

Who you want to target, who is your ideal customer and all of that.

Then if you know that, that's how we normally start every program also with our clients.

And we understand who they want to target.

And then it's our job to figure out who are the influencers matching that target.

So it could be demographics, where do the clients, the products ship?

Is it global?

Is it some specific country based?

What's the age?

It could be anything, right?

We target that down and then match with the influencers who actually have the same audience.

And there's a bunch of tools to actually target it down that we use to analyze influencers and affiliates profiles and their websites and their traffic.

And that's how we match their traffic, figure out what is actually matching our client's traffic or target audience.

Now that makes sense.

And then, so once you identify them, you've looked at who is their ideal customer, you've worked through some of that data.

Now comes a question of metrics.

So what metrics should they prioritize when measuring the success of an influencer marketing campaign?

Yeah, there's many, many different campaigns can be done.

For example, we have clients who they want only content from influencers.

So we do like a product seeding where we send them products and then the influencers send us content back.

And that's pretty much it because they use the content that is so high value for them to create very cool ads, videos, all of that, and on their website and so on.

And that's what they want.

That's...

rather rare, but most commonly in the sales, of course, is the most important metrics.

In that case, we just have to make sure that the tracking everything works, inference using the link, their coupon codes, everything, and we set up an affiliate.

marketing system or platform for the client and we give them links that will track the sales and those are the main conversions that we need to track and grow.

But also there could be other things like content, there could be also short-term buzz in social media if it's a product launch or this kind of Kickstarter campaign, then social media could work better or because it's fast, it's immediate or if we talk about long-term evergreen content that can bring you sales for a long time, really much, really like similar like SEO.

Then we're talking about YouTube, websites, blogs.

It's a little bit that takes longer time because it takes time to create the content, especially videos, YouTube.

But they are evergreen and will bring you long-term sales.

But yeah, the main KPIs could be sales or registrations, content posted, how I...

how good is the content performing, the engagement on the content and other things that could be done with influencers like some giveaway campaigns and maybe you have some other call to action there like follow our Instagram as well or join the emailing list for further lead nutrition and nurturing the lead so it really depends but yeah these are the main cases.

It sounds then like as you're working with these groups, it's very individual case basis.

Like it just depends both on the influencer and then the business at hand.

Is that the case?

It sounds like it's not a one size fits all situation.

Yeah, while we have our systems and ways how we do things, every client is unique.

That's why we like to say like a boutique agency that we really narrow down on like what you actually need, what's your goals, how you want to do things and all of that.

We have done so many different things so we can adapt.

We're very easy to adapt, we're very flexible.

And it really depends on the client.

But the main case is that the client wants sales, they want a successful sales channel.

We find them influencers and affiliates.

We work at the same time with influencers and affiliates at the same time.

So social media influence, websites, networks, everything.

We just try everything and narrow down to what is converting the best and scaling there.

So normally our clients, they want to grow in sales and we built from zero up a good converting sales channel for them.

Excellent, I love that.

I appreciate that description.

So we often hear about brands combining that affiliate and influencer marketing strategy.

How do those two approaches complement each other?

So, it's Affiliate, as I mentioned, they're only working for a commission.

It's very good for the company because you have very low risk.

Your risk could be just the time and the investment of setting up the affiliate program in Share Assell and all of that and sending products.

But that's pretty much it.

Even in the networks, most of the times they don't even want your product.

They will just gather all the information, check your reviews and make a review post based on that.

And so especially in the networks, what happens there.

And then, but the influencers, yes, they would ask many times if they're bigger influencers, they would ask also like a prepayment and so on.

But our aim and what our agency always does is we always want them to sign up as an affiliate as well.

And if the influencer is saying that like, oh no, like...

I'm not interested in the affiliate program, or ambassador program, however you want to, or influencer program, however you want to name it.

But if they are not interested in joining that and also earn commission from sales, it's a red flag for us.

Because we want influencer who work with us, even if we pay them, we want to negotiate the price down, replace some of the prepayment with the commission.

We want them to be invested in the company, in the product or service they promote.

as well.

And that's the only way we can guarantee that if we add the commission factor to the deal as well.

So that's what we as well, even if something happens and they don't sell anything, at least we can track that and we can learn from that.

And you can't improve or grow or scale without tracking and learning what you do and what works for that client and what kind of audience and so on.

At least you can cancel something out for the future.

So some testing work for example.

So what we do, however we collaborate with influencers, either it's product only for content, either it's commission only, either it's only sponsorship, they have to be signed to the ambassador program as well and be using the link so we can track and also we want them to be not only one time partner, but actually that they would have.

some kind of interest to keep promoting you.

And if you do those deals in this way, it works for your company so much better and it works long-term and you have lower risk and you have more data to improve later on.

That makes sense in terms of having the buy-in.

That way that motivation factor to keep going forward.

So, you have any examples of successful campaigns that integrated both of these really well?

Yeah, one of our oldest clients from 2018, for example, travel medical insurance called Safety Wink.

Nowadays we have more products, but this is the product I did the program.

We still consult them as today as well.

We started from zero, literally coding the platform and everything from zero.

and together with the tech team.

And once we launched, it was a tough start, definitely because the whole product was launched with the affiliate program as well.

So it took a lot of time to build up the trust, but step by step, nowadays the program is doing already more than$400,000 per month sales and growing.

Wow, that is substantial, especially not only the result, but trying to do all of this while they're taking the product to market.

And there's just a lot of moving pieces with that.

Yeah, that was actually how I got into this affiliate and influencer marketing at the beginning.

So I was part of the team, early team, we were around like seven people or something.

And now there's of course more than 100 people already in the team.

And then after a couple years of being a head of partnerships there and building the program, I started consulting.

And then from consulting, it grew into an agency.

So now I have been running my own agency.

three years but at the same time I still work with one of my first clients as well.

That is wonderful.

And it's, it's wonderful to hear to how, you know, just learning through the process gives you that opportunity then to, to not only do one thing, but then build out, create an agency and then work with other, other clients.

What, what should brands keep in mind when pursuing this combined strategy?

Okay, I think one of the most important thing is that I feel current is like 50-50.

50% of people come to me and they're totally aware that influencer and affiliate marketing takes time.

It's not like ads where you draw in some money to meta and you just launch the same day and you can see data starts to come in immediately, right?

What's the click-through rates and so on.

Well, with the influence of affiliate marketing, it takes time.

So first you have to set up the program technically, you have to do the outreach emails, you have to collect the leads, you have to start sending emails.

Then if you think about even yourself daily, like if you receive an email, do you respond it immediately?

Of course you don't.

Some of the emails you respond a couple of weeks later.

Okay.

Then takes that time.

We follow up with people.

If they don't answer via email, we follow up manually through social media to them.

Like, hey, did you get our email?

We really want to work with you using the client's Instagram account.

And then we get in touch with them.

We talk.

We have a call.

Sometimes we have to actually have a call and negotiate with them prices and so on.

The deal.

Some of them go, of course, easier immediately go through the landing page, sign up, and we can accept them into the system and get going.

Some of them take longer, especially bigger ones.

And then we send them the product, they need time to test it actually, right?

Then they need time to produce the content and then they post it.

So I would say normally when we start the client from zero, they have nothing currently done with influencer affiliate marketing.

By the end of the first month, we can start sending out emails.

So we have all the setup emails here, leads, everything set up.

In the first month, we sent the emails out.

second month you start seeing stuff.

Like you start seeing content, you start seeing conversions, all of that.

So that's how it is.

Some clients already have their system set up, we can already see some things in the end of the first month.

But more or less, this is their timeline.

So it's not the same day with like, oh, I did a quick video in iMovie or a quick photo design in the convo and I shoot out there at the same day.

So that's the one thing.

But from our other hand, ads will not bring you in results that the influence and affiliates can.

Also, if you stop putting in money, ads are dead the same second.

With the influence and affiliate program, if you create a YouTube review that is getting views forever, if you get listed in a really highly ranked blog post that reviews...

different kind of products and your product is listed there as top three, for example, that is evergreen content that will bring you sales for years to come.

And you paid for that only for one time or each on commission and you sent them just the product.

So it's really like very different strategies.

One is like one of fast other one is forever long term but slower.

So that's something that yeah, I think should be considered when you reach out to us.

You have to have a little patience.

Well, but I appreciate that because that kind of sets the stage and kind of prepares everybody for what to expect.

It's not an immediate turnaround, but it's not years and years either.

But there is a little bit of lead time.

And I also appreciate what you're saying about affiliate marketing and the evergreen capacity for it because that's something I've been able to enjoy is just with some affiliates and working with them.

And I've had affiliates.

I've had people connect with affiliates months after I put out a video or an email or something.

So it really is evergreen.

You're just sowing seeds that can produce forever, so to speak.

And it's also very logical because it's really creating a relationship with an affiliate, with a partner.

You want them to actually get close to your business and they need to understand and so on.

And it's not like, oh, I'm going to a bar, I met you two minutes ago, we're best friends.

No, it takes time.

It takes time, you know, creating a relationship with the ambassador to have like a really good outcome and generally great recommendation on their social media platform or on their website and blog.

So it's, but it's much stronger because the followers of that influencer or that the readers of the blog post or subscribers of that YouTube channel, they're already so much more.

then that traffic that you get from the ads, that is random cold traffic, you don't even know what's going on from the algorithm.

Yes, you put some metrics, but I mean, it's not really like that great.

With influencers, you really see what's their influencer engagement rate, you know what's the click-through rate on the blog post, you know what you're buying and where you're getting into yourself.

And just in terms of that relationship building, I like that.

And I think a lot of people miss that or don't think of it.

But especially if when there's that buy in, like you were talking about earlier with an affiliate, with an influencer and building that relationship.

There's that trust that as this person continues to promote or continues to use or continues to share that link.

It definitely is that trust factor because the influencer, the business has that relationship with the, you know, with their community.

And so if the community trusts a person, then they are more than likely going to trust something they recommend.

So it seems really, really powerful.

It is, it definitely is.

So what are some effective ways to track, measure the ROI of affiliate, influencer marketing efforts?

I know we talked about wanting to measure, a lot of it is sales, like is this driving leads, is this driving purchases?

How do you track and measure that?

We talked a little bit about it.

I'd love for you to go into a little more detail.

Yeah, absolutely.

So we use affiliate program management tools.

Many of those are just SaaS tools.

And we have our favorite ones that we use.

So if you are a Shopify website, the best tool out there, in our opinion, is App Promote.

It's a really great app.

And you can sign.

I'm gonna leave the links later as well so you can guys see.

And also I have actually a link there because I'm bringing so many clients to them.

So I asked a lifetime discount for my clients.

So I have 20 of lifetime discount with Uppromote.

It's a really cool app.

It's super easy to use.

All the affiliates love it.

It's like no brainer.

They understand.

And there's also like systems out there that like, we have to help people to like actually access the link and so on.

That is really good.

It's also really good for the manager to see the data, the reports, everything.

You have multiple options for the payouts.

So basically what we do is we connect that to your payments and your website so it knows, it gives out automatically also links and codes to affiliates.

So when they sign up, they automatically get the link, they get the code.

If they share the link to their audience or somebody uses the code, they know that, okay, this cell is from that affiliate.

And then it collects all that information.

We can review it.

We can accept or deny affiliates, accept or deny conversions, see if they have also some fraud detection there, and so on, if it's a self-referral or other things.

And then we can manage all of that.

And then once per month, we can do payouts there as well.

They have integration that makes everything really, really easy.

And also it can send out really nicely products for affiliates.

So that's one of the most powerful and our favorite tool.

Easy to use, easy to manage.

Affiliates love it.

It just works.

For WordPress, we use Affiliate VP.

It's the best one so far for WordPress.

It's not as great as the tools for Shopify, but it's the best for WordPress.

And then.

There's other options, post affiliate pro and so on that are a little bit more complicated, prefer a rock and so on.

And also for subscriptions, first promoter, they are made for that.

There's a bunch of other tools, there's hundreds of tools out there.

And so, yeah, you have to see definitely like a couple of things to keep an eye on is where we have had the bad experiences, some tools if they charge for traffic.

And then your traffic spikes, maybe you're running a huge ad campaign and then your tool price spikes, but it's like absolutely unrelevant.

So that's what we why we don't recommend Litino, for example, or some of them are absolutely really hard to use.

So we don't recommend them.

Um, but yeah, those are the some names that I, I would, uh, I would bring out and do recommend.

Um, so referral rock, uh, promote affiliate VP.

Um, and, uh, And from the network, ShareSL is the biggest network.

So network is third party where a bunch of affiliates and bunch of companies meet.

If you register there, the setup is rather painful.

You can contact us, we can do that really smooth for you.

And then after you have the account there, they have one time sign up fee, and then they will charge only a percent the commission you pay to the affiliates.

So it's rather risk-free.

And then you can access thousands of affiliates fast.

Though networks, you need to know what to do because some of the networks, there are also like coupon sites and other like trashy websites out there.

So you don't want to have it open for everyone.

You have to set up your rules.

You have to have it manually approve and deny affiliates to make sure you actually have like, you create a good program there.

I like how there is that approval security aspect to try and lower the chances of fraud and to make sure it's going smoothly.

It sounds like that's a great benefit to what you guys, a great service that you guys are providing to these customers is just being able to help them sort through what's a real lead, what's a valid lead.

affiliate and what's not.

Definitely.

I have seen some horror clients who come to me and they are like, oh first they bought millions of Instagram followers and then of course the engagement rate goes down and then they are like, oh and then we work with affiliates and now our coupon codes are everywhere.

And now like random people are Googling our codes and then we're losing money because we have to pay for the affiliate and then we're losing money with the coupon code, but actually we run that and it was our traffic and now we ended up paying like it was just losing money, just leaking money.

So if you don't know what to do, you can, you can also do it really bad.

And then I have to start cleaning it up, figuring out where all that like bad traffic is coming from and, and why, why some affiliates were like from XYZ.

country is getting so much traffic and it's just like there's double referrals when you have multiple programmes and you don't check if the conversion is already tracked within one or another and you pay two commissions for one conversion.

We have seen everything.

If you do it wrong, it can go really wrong.

Wow, I had no idea that it could go that bad.

Oh wow.

can.

Yeah.

Oh, and it sounds like you have seen it all.

So you are well versed in both how to clean things up and how to help people prevent that going forward.

For sure, for sure.

Yeah, yeah, we are, we always, I think, step ahead.

Well, that has to be a huge comfort for your customers and people who are reaching out to you.

It's like, I know if I go with the Vivian agency, I know everything will be taken care of.

I can relax and just be at ease and let them handle it.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

That's our goal.

And I think that's a that's a huge value, huge value add, because I know a lot of companies, it sounds like don't.

So and that kind of leads into the next question, any, you know, all marketing strategies and tactics, and they all have their challenges.

And affiliate marketing, obviously, that that's no exception.

You talked about a little bit of the, you know, trying to do the fraud and kind of navigate that.

What are some other common pitfalls or challenges that businesses might face and how can they navigate those with the affiliate initiatives?

I'd love to get your take on that.

Yeah, many people come to me and they're like, oh, but like it hasn't worked, but they still want to give it a chance.

And then when I see like look into it and the current program that why it hasn't worked, then there's a few things.

And one thing is like the, just the whole email outreach has been gone wrong.

Either they just talk about themselves, like how cool of a company they are and how they should work, work with the influencer.

and why the influencer should come to them.

And then influencers are like, yeah, I'm getting like so many emails like that.

It should be actually opposite.

It should be about the influencer and why they will benefit and their audience will benefit with working with the company.

Another thing about the emailing is that people don't follow up enough.

They're like, oh, I sent a couple emails, they never answered me, nobody answered.

Well, we send out on the whole time period.

We send out four emails, then we send out two social media messages.

If they don't answer, we follow up again later time after some break.

So we send out around 10 emails over time.

And it's normal, people don't answer.

Influencers get so many emails all the time.

They, it's just like, you can't expect that.

Like they have been waiting in the email box for your email.

So when it comes to them, they immediately click and answer.

It just doesn't happen.

And I know all the founders think that their company is the coolest, their product is the coolest, but really these, you have to like follow up and you have to talk also about them and then put it, you know.

you have to think like how they want to receive the email and then the and the yeah, it has to be collaboration and also about them, not just about you and how cool you are.

So so that's the thing.

Then other things is just like, just not managed enough, like some accept random accounts, and then the program looks bad because you have like accepted like, you know, affiliates who doesn't do anything or you just give out products to random people who are absolutely there's no No point even waste the money and time and effort to account that looks big Social media, but their engagement rate is pretty much close to zero So people are just like looking for wrong metrics is how beautiful are the photos and how big those numbers look like?

But what's the content actually there and booster actually the people follow are those fake followers?

There's a lot of like fake accounts that have like the bot in random followers make the numbers good and they make money of the company companies like that.

So, so you have to actually check not just size, you have to know the engagement rates, you have to look into the comments and all of that.

Does it look real?

You have to have those tools that we invest every month around $4,000 to our tools every month to be able to understand.

the demographics and profiles of the influencers, as well as SEO tools, HR, SEMrush, and all of that to see on the websites and blogs, not just the general traffic, but the demographics, the click-through rates, all sorts of things.

So those are the main things.

And also, people don't know how to negotiate or talk with the influencers.

And also the knowledge of...

What's the market price?

What should I be paying?

Is that the real price or it's not?

Is it worth it or not?

So that's, I feel like everything else we do is kind of like, you know, simple.

I think, it's like, I think like if you, if you master it, you can, everybody can do that, right?

Like, you know, collecting leads, reaching out, but negotiation and actually having the knowledge of what is worth it, what could work based on the years of experience.

and negotiations on the pricing and what looks right and what doesn't.

That's something like it's hard to learn fast.

That's experience.

Wow, there was so much in that answer.

Like, let me ask just a couple of follow ups because I mean, at the beginning you were talking about how when people reach out, it's all about themselves and not about, you know, like the influencer or the person on the other end.

And that is just, that's just bad marketing right there.

Right?

That's bad marketing, that's bad sales.

It always has to be about the other person.

And So do you find that you're having to do a lot of education with your clients on how to do this and what it should be through this process?

The same with the number of times you have to reach out just to get on, to get visibility.

I would love to hear the education aspect that you do with your clients.

Yeah, normally we come in and we just redo everything.

We just do it.

We just get it done.

And that's it.

And then on the weekly meetings, we just tell them what we did and we show them and we get their thumbs up.

We show them emails and say, do you like it and all of that.

And there's the normally, as we know, like...

you know, push backs and then we just keep moving forward.

That's how we do stuff.

We like to get things done.

Right.

I love that.

Well, it makes so much sense, right?

You're just like, I'm going in, we're going to fix it, we're going to make it right.

Just let us do our job.

And I'm sure they're like, great, just make the pain go away, right?

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Well, and all of those things that you shared, like all of those were things that I had not even thought about in terms of affiliate and trying to build those things.

Same with negotiation.

I'm sure the rates are all over the place.

There's no set market rate that's easy to identify.

So I'm sure you do a lot of work with them on that as well.

Yeah, it's really, really crazy.

It's from like extremes to extremes, from one scale to another.

It's really like I have a really big influencer who is like really good, highly engaged audience, a huge and really like big one and commission only.

And then I have a tiny one, micro one, it's like 15,000.

And then they ask you like a thousand dollars for a couple posts.

And I'm like, wow.

Okay, so yes, like I've seen everything.

And then there's like, you know, reasonable offers.

So, so yeah, we, when we do the outreach, we get them a lot of offers, some of the influencers just go through the whole system, they sign up and they start promoting all of that.

But then, of course, every week we get some, some sponsorship.

So we put them always together and we, we present them to our clients weekly on weekly calls.

And then it's like, okay, these are some of the offers we marked them red.

It's like, If you want, you can look at them.

We don't recommend because it's overpriced or they're actually real numbers.

Like what actually matters, not the size of the channel, but the engagement rates are actually low, but we just leave them here so you know.

And these are the ones we are negotiating the price down.

So they're yellow or these are the green ones that are like really good deal.

the traffic and everything matches, it's really good, it's very reasonable price, that's what we recommend doing.

And then we can like, you know, clients, of course, decide eventually like what they want to invest in, if they want to accept or not.

Sometimes we also have clients who don't do any kind of sponsorships at all, that they're only commission only.

So then we know, then we answer them immediately, say like, hey, sorry, we don't have a sponsorship budget.

We only have this product, but this product is really expensive.

We have clients who have products for$6,000 and they give it for the right influencers, right?

Or products that are around 100 and so on as well, right?

So everything in between.

So yeah, it depends on the client's budget, but yeah, we do those recommendations and negotiate also always the best possible price.

What we do is we always...

like we are part of the company.

So we use the client's email with their domain.

We say we are the affiliate manager or head of partnerships or so on.

We put the title.

So the influencers feel really that like they're directly talking with the company.

And we represent as we are part of the company and not just like a third party agency.

And we feel that that's something that the clients really appreciate and they love.

And then we have those video calls weekly and daily Slack communication.

We're always like really, really connected.

And then it flows, it flows really well.

That that really that white label type of service where you're part of the company and influencers are dealing directly with you that has to give you and the you know the company itself and that has to be a great benefit because now the influencer knows or it appears there's no third party they're negotiating directly with the company and it just takes out some of the some of the unknowns for everybody, it seems like, and it just makes it just a safer and better experience for everybody.

Yeah, absolutely.

And I'm blown away by just all of the tech that's available, but also the tech that you're using to be able to get a good understanding of these, of the influencers and how these types of marketing campaigns and strategies, are they effective, are they not?

You're reaching out based on a lot of good data, a lot of solid data to these influencers.

So customers, like the businesses you work with, they can have great confidence that the people you reach out to, they are solid and will be a good fit.

Yeah, absolutely.

I feel that's one of the huge strengths we have compared to if a company would hire somebody who, yes, maybe also has a lot of experience like I do, but they don't have a full team, 10 plus people also tackling on a problem if it comes up.

Also, no employee or a freelancer comes with a package of close to $4,000 every month invested from our side, so the clients can use the best tools out there on the market.

Absolutely.

It is you provide a fabulous service to these businesses as opposed to hiring somebody else.

As we kind of wrap up here, one takeaway you'd like to leave listeners with if they are considering the affiliate, the influencer marketing as part of their strategy.

Yeah, I mean, everybody should consider it.

I'm going to drop you some links also from like newer studies and so on, how the marketing is changing and everything.

I mean, ads and those kind of things are so yesterday.

So if you aren't considering it yet, then now it's yesterday was the time.

And yeah, educate yourself about that.

Read about it.

It's definitely something that has a good impact, not only sales, but also branding.

And also you can get genuine good content that you can use in multi-channel.

And what I also really, really love about it is if you think about as a founder, you're like, you know, thinking about, I need to do SEO, I need to run a blog, I need to do a good social media, we should have a good YouTube channel.

You can't do it all.

But what you can do is work with the best blogger in your industry.

You can work the coolest YouTuber who talks about your industry.

And you can get big Instagram influencers, or a bunch of them, of course, talking about you.

So you don't have to create your own Instagram.

You don't have to do your YouTube.

You don't have to create a blog that would compete with those YouTubers and bloggers.

You can just collaborate with them.

It saves you so much time and money and you will actually not start something that you don't even know if it works out and take so much effort.

You can just nail it through partnerships like that.

Wow, that is such a good point is...

I think I can't hear you.

I can't hear you, your voice is gone.

I'm sorry, now I've got it off mute.

Sorry about that.

We'll cut that out.

That's what we'll edit.

We won't do that little mistake on my part.

We'll cut that.

I love what you're saying though.

It takes care, you know, you don't have to do it yourself.

You hire it out and it goes so much smoother.

So as we wrap up here, and for everybody listening, we'll drop all those links in the show notes so you can find it.

For listeners who want to know more about you, more about your work or working with you, where do you want them to go?

Yeah, you can just check out vivianagency.com.

That's our website.

And yeah, there is where you find also a link to book a call with me if you want to discuss if this strategy could work for your business.

Excellent.

Vivianagency.com.

We'll put it in the show notes, as well as the other information.

And this has been a fabulous conversation.

I've learned a ton, and I know the audience will as well.

Awesome, I'm so glad to hear that.