It's Marketing's Fault

It is time for Build That Podcast, where we will discuss how you can use a podcast to grow your business and expand your influence.

I'm your host, Eric Rutherford, and I am thrilled today because I have with me Deb Coviello.

She is the drop-in CEO. She is a fractional executive. She's also a leadership coach who guides leaders of today and tomorrow, really, to navigate challenges with confidence.

She is also host of the Drop-in CEO podcast.

She's an author, the CEO's compass, your guide to get back on track, and she has another book in the works coming out in 2024, The CEO's Apprentice. Deb, welcome to the show.

Oh, Eric, I am thrilled to have this conversation with you. So much to share and I can't wait to provide some bit of value to your audience.

And you will, I have no doubts, it will benefit the audience tremendously. So you have been in a lot of operation, a lot of technical roles over the years, a lot of executive positions. What moved you into this, what I'll say this coaching role or this really this fractional executive role, because I know we talked a little bit before of how they. they merge and work together, what prompted you to move into that space?

Well, if you want to know the truth, it was because I don't want leaders to have to go what I went through in my corporate career. There was this affinity, this thing that just kept happening to me. I was a high performer, engineer, quality and operational excellence professional. and they would always throw me at the hairy problems, Deb, go fix this, drop it over here.

This plant is closing, we need to help transfer the knowledge to the new plant. And by the way, there are some interested parties that don't think this is a good thing to do. Constantly, over and over again, and as I went through my career, I started getting into those dream jobs that I really wanted.

I was the head of operational excellence. We're gonna drop you into an organization, but by the way, you have to hire people because half the staff left. And right now you're not making any money in this organization.

You need to get up to $5 million. And I'm saying, oh my.

So how to rebuild and build that infrastructure and engine to get that result.

And then my last corporate role, dropped in as the head of quality. We were the last performing region.

We were in chaos. There were lots of customer complaints, salespeople complaining, what are you doing better? Well, again. through evolving my leadership rather than being a firefighter, which is often typical and getting burnt out.

I evolved my leadership style to rally the troops and lead differently.

That led us to a place of being in fourth place, which wasn't a good place to be to second place in like 18 months.

And so through that process, I was evolving.

And I realized that I want to help businesses, small and medium sized businesses, those C-suite leaders, founders, of companies not have to be in crisis and firefighting mode. That's not what we're paid for. That's not what we're doing. And so when I drop in now as a fractional leader, yes, I partner with them, I roll up their sleeves and there's a technical component to rebuild the organization and get them out of chaos. But along the way, You need to be talking to that C-suite leader because there may be behaviors or leadership qualities that are not sustainable for the new steady state that we want to achieve. And then by the way, I can fix any problem again. I'm a six sigma lean black belt, et cetera. But unless you then look at the skills of the people to be able to perform at a different level, whether it's communication, team building, messaging, et cetera. you pull me out, because I'm not there forever, and then you can't sustain the gains, and then you can say, well, that was the consultant's fault, it wasn't possible, and you go back to business as usual.

Hence, long story short, fractional leadership to drop into organizations when they need me at critical points, but also to develop the people for lasting result. It was because I didn't want anybody to struggle like I did, and that's why I do that work now.

That makes total sense and it sounds like you have you have experienced the whole gamut of that particular Experience it sounds like you were the go-to person You were the almost the special ops that dropped in to sort of fix and rebuild and get things moving

You know, that's the strength and the demise of a high performer.

Again, we as engineers going into manufacturing operations, we are groomed and celebrated to run into the fire, get to the root cause, solve the problem, make those KPIs go up. And I was pulled by other leaders into different roles because I was able to do that, being able to articulate a clearly defined problem versus just... shooting and aiming later, getting teams grounded, and what are we here to do? Do we have any data? And just things like that. And then this ability to listen to the chaos and the noise when teams come together and distill it down to the essence. So it's this that we're trying to solve, is it not? And then in that calming voice, people say yes, and then I'm able to move them forward.

People have told me not only my voice. and the way it comes across, but then able to articulate problems in a way that people know where to go next becomes a superpower. And that's why I am pulled into these situations because sometimes leaders, they're so close to the problem. They can't do that.

They can't hear the details that I hear. So a crystal ball, a mirror, what have you. Deep listening, also a leadership skill is why I am drawn to this work. to be able to get out of the chaos and get to the work that needs to get done.

It seems like coming in as sort of this neutral third party, you alluded to it a minute ago, where sometimes leaders are very, I mean, they're just weeds or they have, they've been there 20 years and so they have this, I mean, they're just there. Is that, do you find sort of that neutral third party coming in from outside gives you maybe even more credibility or gives you more insight into what's going on?

Yes, because recently I had a situation. I have a client and I'm trying to be as vanilla and as vague as possible, but they are growing. And I love the service that they provide.

But what works for that senior leader externally and interfacing with their community as well as their clients, the edginess, the messaging is so strong and that's why customers are attracted to her. But that same... edginess, that voice that cuts through the noise, cannot also be used within the operations.

It has to be slightly distilled because when you're trying to make a change or disrupt externally, that same skill cannot be used internally.

Yes, you have to have a strong voice, where's the mission, where we're going, what's critical such that we can perform and deliver to a client, but how they message was having a negative impact. And so I was part of hearing these conversations.

And for a truly aware leader open to feedback, I was able to share my perspective. I said, it's your superpower.

That's why people are drawn to you. I said, but that same skill could be detrimental in the wrong environment.

And you disrupt the people in your environment and then they hurry scurry, they become firefighters and they're not able to focus on the important work. And so I see and hear that.

And then when I share that at the same time, we're I had this ability to elevate the leader, to think differently and lead differently to get a different result.

And it sounds like then just being able to provide that insight to them

Yeah.

really kind of help them figure out their blind spots even. Do you find that is there a sort of common blind spots or do you

Yeah.

or maybe not? How do you help them kind of overcome that? Because I know, I mean, I know we all have blind spots, but I...

I didn't know from that executive level if there was something more common there amongst that group or not.

So I appreciate that question and all these questions. I have never been asked before. So thank you for getting me to think deeply here. But I think it's probably the reason why I wrote the CEO's Compass, Your Guide to Get Back on Track. These C-suite leaders have a track record of moving up high performers, becoming entrepreneurs, because their playbook worked and it was different and distinctive. And that was why they were celebrated. And the common theme I am finding is they use that same book. playbook, they expect to get a particular result, and then something's different or the environment changes or new customer requirements or loss of a leadership or asked to do something they've never done before. And then when they try to use that playbook and they're not getting the results, they start getting lost and losing their confidence because like what's wrong with me? It's not working anymore. And I talk to people in my book about, you know what, you need to rethink your leadership style that what you did before is not gonna get you forward.

And maybe using a compass with different areas that I have seen blind spots might lead you to a different direction.

So I'll give you one bit. Leaders often seek results, but when in reality they are in pursuit of peace of mind, which is very different.

Traditionally, we are taught to get market share, cost of goods sold. defect rates down, particular efficiencies, et cetera. And that's how we're paid, compensated, and judged.

And that's what we do, we beat the people.

To get those results, you high-five when you get the result, the people are overwhelmed and burned out, you have the steady state, and then all of a sudden it falls off the wagon because what you didn't do was try to achieve peace of mind, and peace of mind for leaders to get there. And I know this is in my book, but it's a key principle, is that you hire smart people to do the right thing. But what we haven't done is spent enough time closing some of the essential skills that people have on a personal level and then team interactions.

When you start looking at a person's ability, like for instance, you say everybody should be in sales. Every time they interface with a customer, they need to be thinking of having a customer mindset. But if that person has never had the training, they've always been a heads down individual, we've never explained to them what does it mean to have a customer-centric mindset, how to communicate with them, et cetera. they're gonna continue to fail or not get the result and then you beat them up and you make them a low performer. When we focus on the skills and closing those skills gaps, ultimately people's confidence are gonna come back out. You start asking them questions about what should they do? What do you think versus how to get a result? You get those high performing teams.

And that's where leaders need to focus, not on the result.

It's more on the outcome of peace of mind versus the short term lagging indicator of results. Big, big blind spot for leaders.

Is that sort of outward pressure on the leaders where maybe it's stockholders, maybe it's investors where they're saying, you know, hey, we've got to hit our Q3 numbers, we've got to hit our Q4 numbers, and it just sort of is this downward pressure that they don't realize?

It's probably both. I mean, again, they got to this place because of results. And then the continual pressure of you've got to get results. And it's only the crazy leaders like Jobs or the Zuckerbergs or all these billion million errors that do things differently. People think they're quirky. They lead differently. They say, believe me, believe me, we're going to get to Mars or what have you. And people are saying, yeah, but show me the money. How are we going to pay for this? All of that. It's this courage. It's this inner strength, craziness, and courage that some leaders need to say, I know the results are important, but just give me a little bit of time to work on these foundational things. And I promise you, not only are we going to get the results, we're gonna sustain the results. And that's a missing piece, the courage to get sustainable results.

I remember reading about Jeff Bezos and his early days at Amazon, especially through the early 2000s. And he was doing exactly what you mentioned. It's like stock prices are down, all our spending's on operations.

We're just building, building. It's going to get better. And now it's between, I mean, I don't even know how big they are. I don't have a good frame of reference other than one of the top five companies in the world. It's enormous. So I appreciate that distinction and how I think we just get it wrong. We have the wrong understanding.

That kind of rolls into this next question of in on your, on your website and some of the information you've written, you talk about information versus messaging.

And that kind of ties back a little bit to the, to the example you gave earlier with, with one executive, what is the difference?

between information and messaging, and why does it matter? Why does that difference matter?

So I appreciate this question. This is another blind spot, but it's as a result of how we groom and develop professionals.

So when we come out of college, we're really good at doing presentations, and there's super smart people with Excel spreadsheets and any kind of platform. And we are celebrated to put together a presentation that has the data and the bullet points and how to solve the problem. And so We often will find as these professionals maybe move up in their career after they're beyond the five year mark in that maybe five to 15 year mark, they'll put a presentation saying, and say something like, as you can see from the data, we are having a negative impact on our customers because the number of complaints are going up.

And so we need to buy this new piece of equipment.

It's gonna get us 15,000, it's gonna cost $15,000. And then that professional is met with silence, with debate, with deferral.

deflection and ultimately they are deflated because they say, can't you see it on my chart? Isn't it clear to you we need to get this equipment? The number of complaints are going up.

And it's because we have never shown them an example of what it means to message, because the ultimate outcome is not to just get the money or show them the graph. The outcome, and this is important, the outcome of what we want to achieve is to influence conversation, influence a decision. the elements of disinfluence are not just presenting the information, is it good or bad, but in the context of business, what's the impact? Is it a risk or opportunity?

And then ultimately, what is the outcome we are going to achieve by addressing the risk or the opportunity?

So that issue about, hey, customer complaints are going up and we need to spend $15,000, the messaging could be. As you can see, the number of customer complaints are going up and it's negatively impacting our customer perception.

I propose that we invest in $15,000 to buy this piece of equipment.

Not only are we gonna get an ROI in two months time based on reducing the number of defects, but we're going to have a top line impact by preserving that market share or that sales from that customer. So a little bit of little financial knowledge to kind of click with that finance person in the room, click with that CEO or VP of operations mentality.

When we teach our leaders how to message, you might not get what you want, but if it spawns conversation, well, how long have we been having this problem? Is this the best price?

What could we do differently? Even if you have a dialogue in the room, you are influencing conversation and moving things forward.

We don't do this right. Only a few people in the organization learn this skill. They move up to higher and higher positions and they're the ones that are being able to influence.

We don't teach this. We need to mentor this because that will remove some of the frustration of our up and coming professionals being able to make a difference.

And I'm just gonna stop there because it's another big blind spot.

No, and I appreciate that distinction.

I know I've run into that and I've talked with people about that. It's just that idea of using the right words, right? It's using

Yeah.

the right terms. It's putting it in the perspective that the executive, that matters to the executive because the executive and sort of middle management and down below, they all, it seems like they all have...

They're all trying to accomplish the same goals, but they have sort of different marks that they're trying to hit in different ways of doing it.

Yeah, so tie it together with financial acumen or financial numbers. Tie it together with customer perception, customer impact. And if you happen to have a customer email that says they're gravely disappointed in our performance, you can throw that in there as well and play with their emotions because ultimately you're trying to connect with somebody's what they're thinking and what they're feeling. It's not about the dollars and cents. They probably couldn't care if the thing was 20 or $30,000, but it's about How big a risk is this for them?

And we don't teach that, and I am trying to teach that more and more because so many professionals, and these are not even the C-suite leaders, those that are coming up the line, they come to me through LinkedIn, through my website, and they didn't realize that they were missing this, and that could be the missing piece that they are looking for to be able to get that next job or that next promotion.

Wow. So if you're listening, definitely think through your messaging. Think through the way you're having these conversations.

And if you have had trouble, this is an opportunity to learn from Deb's book, from other information. This is a great resource to begin examining, because I think this is a communication gap. that we have. Let's just kind of from a fractional executive level, how? Well, I guess let me ask first if you would define what is a fractional executive because I think probably many of our listeners know, some may not. What is it? And then how can that? Well, let's just start there. Let's just start. How would you define a fractional executive?

So it has become a popular term to differentiate one from simply being a business advisor or business consultant. Fractional means that we're there to do high quality work for a very short amount of time or on a limited basis, often for companies that cannot afford a full-time person but as a small and medium-sized business, they realize they need that expertise.

but potentially on a fractional basis, one day a week, a few hours a day, et cetera, providing high value at the rate that they can afford and actually do the work, not just create a checklist and say, here, go fix it. No, we become part of the leadership team, which is a little bit different than simply a consultant.

And again, just provide high value when and where they need it. And when they, you're no longer needed.

You leave, but you have probably left a higher impact than somebody just saying, go fix this and go fix that. It's a much higher level of commitment and impact to an organization.

No, and that helps just kind of set the tone because again, I've heard the term a lot of different fractional, but hearing you describe that in terms of you are part of the leadership team, you are contributing valuable work, valuable insight, I mean, literal work to the organization

Yes.

just on a less than full time basis for a period of time. So I appreciate that.

that definition and how you described it.

Is it mostly to do and when people bring in fractional leadership, fractional executives like you, is it to get them to the next phase of growth? Is it to sort of solve a problem of today or just does it depend on the situation?

So knowing that it depends on the situation, I'll first go over what I have typically seen. There are CMOs, Chief Marketing Officer, COOs, CIOs, ABCDO. There are many that simply perform a function during a particular time, maybe set up those new systems, actually perform the systems, maybe ultimately transition to somebody else. I. differentiate myself.

I am the drop-in CEO because I become whatever they need at that moment in time. And I have come in at different points on the crisis spectrum. And it's a simple scale where five, you're in crisis, you are probably losing business and customers.

Four, you are in a place of chaos. You haven't lost business yet, but you're constantly firefighting and not able to do the work that you're supposed to do. Three, control, you are now performing.

No major issues. Two, continuous improvement.

And ultimately, one, being a differentiating company for which customers come to you and say, how do you do that? For me, I have been dropped in just recently where a company lost a leader, and they needed me to drop in and be leadership.

to the team and build back their confidence because their confidence was degraded during that period of time and make sure that they were well supported and then transition to a new permanent leader. So I did whatever I was needed to do in that moment.

Now, I'm on another assignment about eight to 10 hours a week supporting a CEO of a company. and I am their back office operations, the chief operations officer, making sure I've got a well-trained workforce with stats that reflect how we're performing and SOPs or procedures, building up the infrastructure. So ultimately they might not need me, but I'm building it for growth because she was in, this person was in a place of chaos, actually starting to lose clients because there was chaos in that. But as the COO, I go in, I set it up, stabilize it to allow the business to grow. There's many different situations. One more, a company needed a particular certification to stay on a core supplier list.

They weren't in trouble. They were running just fine. But if they didn't make a change and they didn't know how to go through the change, I was the expert that helped them through the change.

Again, dropped in, did whatever they need.

That's the drop in CEO model.

like that, just being able to function in the role that they need for the time that they need it in order to get the desired results.

Yes, and I am out there leveraging it again to your good graces of allowing me to speak on your platform, getting the word out that there is another way where you can get that external support for your company to make a lasting impact. And so, and I've got a lot of smart people behind me also in different areas.

If I can't solve the problem, I have people in HR, project management. If I can't solve the problem, I also have a whole team of people that potentially could solve the business issue. So thank you for letting me elaborate on the Drop-in CEO because it's a slightly different brand than simply that fractional executive leader, which is also quite valuable.

No, and I appreciate that distinction and just kind of being able to elaborate on that. Now let's kind of transition because not only are you, not only do you have this expertise, not only are you in these roles, you also have a podcast. And I mean, when I checked on Apple this week, you had like 300 episodes, which is just a huge number. And I'm curious what... prompted you to start this podcast.

Well, the truth is I like to talk. Ask my mother, ask my teachers, all through the years, I just wanted to regurgitate. You thought I was an extrovert, I'm a little on the introverted side. I had a desire to be able to speak, talk, ask questions, interview people on my terms. Because when I started my own business after being in corporate many years, I... had a couple opportunities to appear on a podcast. I said, oh, this is fun, the ability to tell my stories and convey information and have an impact on the host, et cetera. I was just thrilled and then I got the bug and I said, I was trying to chase to get onto people's podcasts and it is not a comfortable place trying to chase. But I said, I can do this myself.

I can create my own platform, invite who I want to speak to. and create this amazing networking engine and building up a network of people that can either be advocates for me or I can support them. This became such a phenomenal platform for my thought leadership and also elevating the thought leadership of others and hopefully impacting people. And I will tell you after over 300 episodes, the stories I can tell about how this has impacted the lives of people is absolutely amazing. It's not necessarily about a financial transaction.

Did I get any business from it? But it's all that indirect influence and impact that I have had that I just love podcasting.

And I also enjoy you interviewing me. You've got a great voice as well. It's just an amazing, free, creative medium.

It really is. And thank you, by the way. I totally understand why people think you have a very soothing, relaxing, calming voice. It just sort of brings the level of the room down. So I totally understand that is a superpower that you have that I am sure comes into play, not only on your podcast, but, you know, in fractional and the fractional roles that you have. And I think with the podcast, I think that you brought up something really, I think some people don't realize is when you host a podcast, you get to build some fantastic relationships and you meet a ton of people in it. It's a it's a fabulous networking opportunity, like, you know, just to be able to help. Did you anticipate that on the front end? Or is that something you sort of discovered as you went?

I had to figure it out myself. When I was first brought in, I had a strategist, a podcasting strategist that says, here's how you can use it as a bridge, as a lead gen funnel for future business. And I got that and I understood that, but in the beginning it was like the wild, wild west. I just wanted to interview people. People just wanted to be on my show.

I felt just kind of cool and really just enjoyed it. But then with time, it is an investment in time. You have to build a strategy, well, why am I doing this just for the sake of having conversations and putting the content out there? No, it was more about meeting people that maybe I could potentially help, or maybe they know somebody that I can help. It was about building the brand, getting very clear about the kind of people that I want to provide value to C-suite leaders of today and the demographic, my C-suite leaders of tomorrow, for which I do solo episodes. So. I didn't have it right out of the gate, but what I did have right was the courage to push the button and say, I can do this, even though my head was full of doubts and would people come and listen over time if I believed in myself and believed in what I'm doing, the people came, the downloads came, and people wanna be on the show. So it changed, but it starts with just saying, I wanna try, I wanna try and get my voice out there. And once you do it, you're hooked.

I agree. I think it's a fabulous medium, a fabulous way to do that. And I appreciate that you described how what you started has changed over time. I think sometimes businesses and entrepreneurs who may be considering a podcast think, I have to have all the answers, I have to have it upfront, and if I get it wrong, I'm doomed.

I have learned, and I heard this from people, don't be tied to the outcome.

So if I had the outcome, if I wanted a certain amount of business as a result of it, I probably would have quit.

However, over time, I've realized that I know it is part of building my brand. It is part of the marketing engine that builds trust with my audience. People will lurk and listen for a while. And then when they show up on my doorstep, oh, I've been listening to your show for a while. It is a great door opener for people to meet you. And then the conversations start kind of in a second hand, not just with the people that you're speaking to on the show, but when people come around and say, I've been listening to your show, you automatically have that trust. You can start a conversation, and that's where the possible business transactions start.

So you have to trust the process, not necessarily the outcome.

I like how you describe that. You trust the process, not the outcome. And I like how you also described how you have the people who listen, and they listen for a while.

Suddenly they know you, they trust you, without ever having met you. It sounds like then you've had at least more than one or many. It sounds like you've had more than one or many people who have, who have listened and been like, Ooh, I want to reach out to Deb because she can solve my problems.

So where shall I start? I mean, I've got two or three examples, but I will tell you there is one person, maybe they were listening to the podcast and after listening maybe for three, four months, they finally connected with me. At the end of the day, we built this rapport, I was able to make a proposal to them because they wanted me in their organization.

Now, we haven't closed on the deal. However, they had that trust and that belief that I might be able to be that person to talk to about their business issue. That's on the CEO level. I had a person, I knew them. Not closely, but we knew each other through an organization. They just sent me a note on LinkedIn and I am so thrilled and they said, you know what? That solo episode that you talked to me about better communication through email. I said, I tried your technique and I got my first sale. And I just wanted to let you know that I applied some of those principles and I got it. Now, am I gonna be able to do a business transaction with that person? No, but I've built some trust. And you plant those seeds because I will tell you this most recent engagement that I had, I was in California for a month. was because of a seed that was planted 10 or 15 years ago with somebody.

And when the situation presented itself, I was top of mind.

So again, it's about planting seeds, leaving an impact on people. You never know how it's gonna come back.

That is so true. I like how you describe that. The planting of seeds, it's about being top of mind, it's and building the trust.

There's, yeah, it's so much, it's long term, right? It's,

Yeah.

you have to look at it as the long game.

But yeah, I think podcasts are just incredibly valuable.

Yes.

What's for people considering podcasts, what is one challenge that you've encountered that you did not anticipate.

Well, it does depend on what are the results that you're looking for.

You know, is it, is it, you know, getting a lot of downloads and you don't get that result or, hey, I've got this amazing guest. I can't believe I got that interview with that person.

They're so famous. They've got five bestselling books. I'm going to have amazing downloads after I have that conversation.

And I will tell you, unfortunately, those have been some of the lowest downloads I've ever gotten. because sometimes they're very busy, they're very important, they're very nice people, really, really great to interview, but when you look for that long-term relationship, they're very busy.

They may be a few years ahead of you, they just don't have the time to promote that piece of work that you produce together. I have found, though, the people that may have never done a podcast before and are so excited to be interviewed and have this piece of content. They share it everywhere with friends, family, colleagues, etc. Those have been some of my top downloaded episodes. So don't be necessarily stuck on, oh, you know, I've got to have this kind of guess. It's really more about what kind of relationship I want to build with that person.

What kind of value I want to create for my audience and kind of take away maybe that previous expectation.

So again, just be very clear on what you want to accomplish.

And don't necessarily go for those A-listers. Again, depends on what your strategy is. But those A-listers may not necessarily serve you and your community.

That's a very good point. It really depends. There is a lot of opportunity and a lot of wonderful people and a lot of wonderful guests who we just don't realize are out there. They're not the most visible.

Right. But it's interesting then those, this is, so anyway, again, it just don't necessarily be stuck on, well, this is exactly what I want the podcast to do. It's a little bit kind of trusting the process and listen to what your guests are saying about like, oh, I really like how you did this or when somebody gives you some feedback. I heard that episode on such and such, do you have their contact information?

I would love to connect with them. You just gotta like let the universe tell you where your strengths are and it kind of pulls you.

And so again, I, in the beginning, I just wanted to interview, I don't know, a Lister podcast guests. And later I realized I need to be interviewing more C-suite leaders to share their insights for the future generation, but also to build a relationship with them because those are the people I can eventually serve. So it's, it's really about getting clear on what your strategy is and what you want to accomplish.

versus I don't know letting the gurus tell you oh you need to do this and you need to do that you gotta kind of figure it out yourself take the best advice from others but figure out what serves you your clients or your community and what's your strategy so again just it's a learning process

love that. I love that description.

Just one last question before we wrap up. For businesses, maybe executives, entrepreneurs, they've thought, you know, I might do a podcast.

It sounds really good. I totally am on board with all the trust building, relationship building, Deb, that you just described.

One takeaway that you would like to leave them with.

Can I give two? One, don't hesitate. The world needs to hear your voice and thought leadership. It's about building trust. It's your brand. You need to get that out there.

If you're a C-suite leader or a senior leader in an organization, don't hide behind the marketing materials in your organization and repost that stuff. We need to hear from you. And one way is a podcast.

The other thing that I would say is don't try to do it alone.

Get some help unless you got a super smart person, a nephew or what have you to help do some of the mechanics of getting the technical part of your podcast together.

It is a lot of work and time and I don't want you to be discouraged.

I had some help guiding me on a strategy and the technical details. It will get you to your goals and help you reach your strategy a lot sooner. ask for help, it will make the process so much easier and enjoyable.

Love those takeaways. If listeners want to know more about you, more about your content, your podcast, where would you like them to go?

So please visit my website, debcovielo at thedropinceo.com.

There you'll find ways to contact me and all of my products and services, but I also play in LinkedIn, Deborah A. Covielo, the Drop-in CEO. You'll find me there. I'll be responding to any of your questions. Just direct message me. I would love to get to know you. So please, please reach out to me. That's how we build a relationship and maybe ways we can help each other.

Indeed. So if you're listening, I will put all of that information in the show notes, as well as a link to her book. Check it out. She has some incredible, incredible information that will, I mean, it has helped me. I know it will help you. So Deb, this has been, this has just been a delight. Thanks for joining me today. I so appreciate it.

Eric, thank you so much for the opportunity.