It's Marketing's Fault

Leslie Shreve [0:00 - 0:49]: So to answer your question, how do we handle that? The bottom line is that even when you're facing something big, only thing you have to worry about is what you're going to do first or next. That's it. Too many people are trying to whip out the crystal ball and go, okay, I'm facing a project. Let me get everything out of my head. Let me try to figure out every step I'm going to take. Because they're trying to fill that project management system, right? No, do nothing. If you are aware of a couple of steps you know you have to take within this realm of the big task or the multi step task or the project. Sure, put it in the notes section, but only focus on the very first or next thing you're going to do. Because on the task line, that's all you need to see. Because that's all you need to do right now. And even if you don't know what's coming, take that step. The taking of the action is going to show you what comes next.

Eric Rutherford [0:49 - 1:27]: Welcome to it's marketing's fault, the podcast where we discuss how to do marketing the right way. I'm your host, Eric Rutherford, and I am thrilled today because I have with me Leslie Shreve. She is a workload management and productivity expert and the founder and CEO of Productive Day. Leslie is also the creator of taskology, which is the science of getting things done. It's a unique, proprietary and all encompassing system for workload management and productivity. It includes management of tasks, time, email information. Leslie, welcome to the show.

Leslie Shreve [1:27 - 1:29]: Thank you, Eric. It's great to be here today.

Eric Rutherford [1:29 - 2:13]: Hey, it is my pleasure. And I am just full confession for all the listeners out there, task management and organization is not my strength. In fact, we'll call it a weakness. Some may even call it like, you know, the bane of my existence. You know, you pick your metaphor. That's where we're at. So I'm thrilled today because I'm excited to learn sort of the nuts and bolts and the truth behind organizational management. So let's just start with. Let's just start with what is something that many people think that's true about task organization or task management that you.

Leslie Shreve [2:13 - 5:02]: Disagree with, that I disagree with? Well, there's a lot going on out there with task management, I would say. I have a lot of observations and, yes, some disagreement with how things should go, but more like, I feel for the people out there who are struggling with task management. And so it's more of me defending the way that they really could do it. That would simplify it and say, you know what, it doesn't have to be that complicated. So I'll give you an example. When people are looking for a task management solution, they are looking generally these days for an app. Now, if they're still attached to paper, they're looking for a fancy pants planner, or they're looking for some kind of journal or something that they can write in. Now, we could talk about handwriting tasks and I could go on about that, because really the most efficient way to manage tasks is in a digital format. So for those who are looking for the app, I say, that's awesome, a for effort. The problem that they're falling into by accident, not their fault, is that all these different bits of software out there, like Asana or Trello or todoist, they're all good. Don't get me wrong, they're all, a lot of them are project management software. I mean, hey, people go to school for that. Like you've got all kinds of certificates and mbas and degrees and project management. That's a whole thing. Here's the thing. When it comes to personal productivity, it's personal, it's individual. You not need a project management system for this. This is just about you. So unfortunately, when people find an app like one of those and the app says, oh, you've got a line or field for project and then one for a task and then one for a subtask and on and on and on, and they've got bells and whistles and colors and categories and oh my goodness, no. Just no, you don't need all that. The challenge that people have is how do I make this work for me? And oh my goodness, if I don't use all these things that come with this program, I'm not getting the value out of what I bought. And I just want to simplify it for people. The only two things you really need to think about in your corporate job or your small business is what am I going to do and when am I going to do it. Now, generally, what you find in these bits of software is subject and due date. Due date du e. But that's not how we set up our system. It is task, teeny tiny task and due date do so, big difference, because it's all about when you're going to take action. So I'll stop there because I could go on for hours about this. But is it a disagreement? Well, no, because I think project management software is great for project management people, but too many people are trying to use project management software for just themselves. And it does not have to be complicated.

Eric Rutherford [5:02 - 5:33]: I appreciate that distinction and that description because, you know, as somebody who has, I've worked at enterprise level companies, I've had, I've had the experience of engaging with project management software. It's not my favorite even there, because that's not my shtick. Like, that is just nothing that doesn't work well for me. I like how you're making it simple. It's just, what do you do and when's it due? Like the what?

Leslie Shreve [5:33 - 5:34]: When are you gonna do it?

Eric Rutherford [5:34 - 5:36]: Not when are you gonna do it? Okay.

Leslie Shreve [5:36 - 5:48]: Yeah. Due date. You keep in mind, like, always keep the deadline in mind. Like, that's not due until January 1. And we wanna put that at the end of the task itself. So it's always in your vision, but it's when you're going to take that first step, which could be tomorrow.

Eric Rutherford [5:48 - 6:21]: Okay. And that's a good distinction. Get into that a little bit. Just as far as, let's, let's talk about the when you're going to do it versus the when it's due. Like, do you, how do you manage that? Because I know, like, my wife and I joke around that, you know, our to do list, or especially my to do list for the day, could really take a month. And, like, because it's like I get everything on the list that comes to mind, and then I try and pick and choose, and then I get overwhelmed. So how do you figure out this whole when to do the thing?

Leslie Shreve [6:21 - 10:23]: This is a trap that a lot of people do fall into. So you're not alone. You're in good company with all the other c level executives I work with and business owners and everybody everywhere. They use maybe the old fashioned legal pad. Right. Or a planner, when a planner's got a little bit more containment. But let's go with the spiral notebooks, big pads, little pads, spiral notepads, steno pads. Right, exactly. Yes. So what happens is you do that brain dump and you get it all out on that piece of paper, wherever that is. And then, and my clients do this all the time. They kind of step back and they go, I'm going to get all that done today. Sure, I can do it, you know, and no, you can't. And you won't. And now, and that's different than are you capable? Are you able? Sure, you're totally capable. But what you're coming up against is the limitations of time. And so now you have to pick and choose. This is prioritization that is necessary. This is the planning on different days instead of trying to get it all done today. Because what's going to happen is you're going to back yourself into a corner. You're going to feel frustrated at the end of the day, gee, I didn't get all of this done. And then you beat yourself up and feel like you shoulda coulda woulda but that's not true. So let me take the weight off your shoulders. Let me take that off. For everybody in our system we literally are choosing different dates, d o or action dates for each and every task on your plate. And that allows you to then group your list by the when, which is, you know, I'm going to do these five things today or these six things tomorrow or these two things the next day because there's a task time connection in there too. But if I back up a little bit, I want everybody to understand that the very first thing that has to happen when you're trying to get a grip on everything that's on your plate is that it's a great thing to do, a brain dump. But what you want to do is do it in a digital format. You want to pick one system, one home base, one mission control where you're putting literally everything you need to do, have to do, want to do, even dream of doing, not all in one day. You want to pick separate days, different days for different things. And it's when you have all of these like literally think of it as an inventory. That's everything. Everything is on your plate. It's an inventory of everything. So when you start to see it in your vision, when your awareness goes up all of a sudden it's oh that can wait but that can't. Now you're prioritizing, it's in your awareness. So you're automatically comparing and contrasting the many things that you have to do and the priorities are going to float to the top. This is the priority for today, that one is for tomorrow. And you've got other important tasks to do too. But there's a couple of must dos in there. When you assign action dates to these various tasks that's when you start to get a real plan together. And that means not everything's going to fit on today or tomorrow, which everybody wants to do, or yesterday not going to happen. So now it forces you to have to pick different days for different tasks or follow ups. Now when you do that and your software allows you to group your list by that date. By the way, most of this is in Microsoft Outlook. For my c level clients. So that's what I've been doing for 20 years. But do we do this in other systems? Absolutely. Todoist is one that a lot of people like. So they're bringing that to me. So the methodology for your technology is the same no matter where it goes. So all you need to do is use that due date field dye, just change it to get, it's a do date do, it's action. So we're able to, in Microsoft because we're using Outlook tasks but not the default screens. This is why it's proprietary, our methodology, because we're moving things around, we're changing columns, we're changing names. We're not using a lot of the bells and whistles in there either. But generally that's where that due date turns into o and that's where you really start to get the structure that you can rely on so that you can go, okay, I don't have to do all this today. I can actually plan different things for different days. And our clients have anywhere from 30 to 150 tasks on their task list, but they go out for months and so does mine. So that's how it goes.

Eric Rutherford [10:23 - 11:14]: Okay, that's fascinating, that idea of, okay, we just, we group it, we do it by day. We assign it to a day. So how does, let's just talk prioritization here. Cause you got my mind spinning all over the place, which is a good thing as you're, you start, you start with the due date and then you find when you're going to do the task. So how then do you work with prioritization? Because sometimes I. Prioritization, there's like you have several things that aren't on a similar priority list. Some things might take a long time to do, so they have to be broken up into chunks. Or like how do you sort of sort through that as well? Because obviously everything can't be high priority because then nothing's high priority. So how do you like grade those?

Leslie Shreve [11:14 - 13:28]: There are a lot of competing priorities in everybody's day. In my day even there's always going to be competing priorities. Yes, some things are going to take longer than others. But here's what's so cool about taskology, if I may say. We have a formula where every task is small and achievable. What's interesting is that when I talk with my clients about what they have on their legal paths or wherever they have their to do lists because we also include Excel spreadsheets here and word documents and whiteboards, I mean everywhere. When we talk about what's there? It's usually a grab bag of, oh, God, big tasks, little tasks, projects, multi step tasks, ideas, things they delegated. It's all over the place. Now when you look at a list like that and you see all this stuff, kind of know what looks achievable and what doesn't, you kind of back away from those things that you're thinking, wow, that's really big. I can't even wrap my brain around that today, or I don't even know where to begin. Then you go for something small and achievable. In our system, everything is small and achievable. Designed it that way so that you don't hesitate, you don't procrastinate, you don't kick the can down the road. So I teach a method of thinking and executing that makes it easy for people to just dive right in and then move seamlessly from one task to the next in your day. So to answer your question, how do we handle that? The bottom line is that even when you're facing something big, only thing you have to worry about is what you're going to do first or next. That's it. Too many people are trying to whip out the crystal ball and go, okay, I'm facing a project. Let me get everything out of my head. Let me try to figure out every step I'm going to take. Because they're trying to fill that project management system, right? No, do nothing. If you are aware of a couple of steps you know you have to take within this realm of the big task or the multi step task or the project. Sure. Put it in the notes section, but only focus on the very first or next thing you're going to do. Because on the task line, that's all you need to see because that's all you need to do right now. And even if you don't know what's coming, take that step. The taking of the action is going to show you what comes next. It's going to unfold. So don't stress about it.

Eric Rutherford [13:28 - 13:52]: That takes a lot of pressure off. Yeah, it sure does, because then it's like, okay, I just have to worry about this. Everything else comes later, but I only have to focus on this. Is that like a pretty significant mindset shift for your clients? Like, does it take a while for them to, like, get in the habit and really begin it can owning it? Yeah, it seems like it'd be a rough thing. How do you help them through that?

Leslie Shreve [13:52 - 15:29]: Well, a lot of coaching. So what happens is when I work with my clients, that very first call which I use go to meeting because back 1520 years ago there was no zoom. So when I went virtual years ago, it's gotomeeting. And so we're sharing screens. And that very first call that we have, because we're actually on the phone anyway, we just share screens, is a three hour call. And by the end of that 3 hours they got that formula down pat. Now, is it going to stick in the very beginning? Well, no. We need practice and accountability and coaching. And that's why in a couple of weeks they get it nailed down. Now that's not to say that later on they lose sight of that, because just yesterday I was talking with a client that I've been working with for probably five, six years, and he's been with me the whole time. And not because he didn't get it, it's because he wants to keep it. So we talk maybe once every month, once every two months and all that. So yesterday I noticed that and he told me, he said, I'm still phrasing things a little too big, not using the formula. And he could see himself slipping, and he could see himself wasting time trying to rethink things that have already been thought through the moment he was aware of it. Like, yep, I've got this thing to do. Here's my first step. And instead of nailing that down, he left it too big or he typed it too large, and then he realized, this is not working for me. So we fixed that yesterday and he's got some new marching orders to keep practicing, to get back into the swing of it, because I think he got away from it. That's why we continue with the coaching, because that can happen. So, yeah, many people will pick it up and keep it, others it might slip a little, but you know, everybody's in a different place there, but one way or the other, we'll get it back up on track.

Eric Rutherford [15:29 - 15:52]: That makes sense, and that's good to know because like this, it seems like very much like any type of training, any type of, I mean, whether any type of disciplined action over time that some you get it easier, some harder, but it takes sort of that constant vigilance to maintain it.

Leslie Shreve [15:52 - 16:41]: It changes. I think once you solidify the habit and build that muscle, it's hard to lose. I think in his particular case, I'm not sure what happened because we've been together the whole time. And until he brought that up yesterday, I don't think I was aware that he was going through that. Taking a close look at things, but I think he was aware of it before I was on that one. But usually it's a muscle you build and you stick with because it's so easy. You want to keep it easy so it's easy to remember. Yes, just make it small. But you do have to slow down long enough in your workday to at least identify that small action step. And I think too many people are in such a rush, rushed, reactive work days, and they feel like they have no time to actually phrase it in the best possible way. But really, that's going to save you time. Then you won't have to rethink it later on.

Eric Rutherford [16:41 - 16:45]: That makes sense. So take an extra. Just take an extra pause.

Leslie Shreve [16:45 - 16:45]: Yeah.

Eric Rutherford [16:45 - 17:11]: And it'll save you a ton later. So what are some of the first steps that someone should take? You know, if they're starting to feel overwhelmed and stressed at work, like my list is just blown up or I can't. I got sticky notes all over the place. Like, what's, what are, like, what's the first step or two for them? Like first step or next step for them?

Leslie Shreve [17:11 - 21:40]: Sure. So it depends on how much stuff is on the desk. So you've got, let's say you have two different people. I have one person, and the desk is completely clear. But they just have an endless to do list on their legal pad, or they've got a couple of legal pads, or they've got a planner, what have you, and then, of course, all the email in the inbox. We'll come back to that later. And then there's the other person who has paper and files just everywhere on the desk. There's sticky notes around the monitor. There's sticky notes all over the place. And they've got the legal pads and some are buried and some aren't. They've got all kinds of tools that they try to use to keep track of things to do. They might have an app and a stenopad and a legal pad, and they've got post it notes, you know, all kinds of things that they're attempting to keep up with all these tasks. So these two individuals are going to start in different places. So I'll start with the person who's got a ton of stuff. The very first thing that that person is going to want to do is make decisions about the stuff. So that means just picking up each piece of paper, each file. And this is why people call me, because it's like, oh, my God, I cannot even wrap my brain around that. But decision making is huge here. So really making a decision about what's useful to you, what's not useful to you. And does any of this have a task associated with it? Is this a reminder sitting here of a task? Maybe the post it note might be. I know stuff on a legal pad will be, but papers and files themselves may or may not be. Usually they're left out as a reminder. I got to get back to that client, or I'm going to work on that client project, or I've got to call that client and ask them about that proof I sent, you know, whatever it is. So if it's there as a reminder or something to do, you want to consolidate all of those, get rid of all the other stuff you don't need, you're deleting. If it's digital, when it's on the desk, it's throw it away, recycle it, shred it, whatever the case may be. But if you've got an action associated with that, you want to put that in one spot and start building that pile, if you will, just to see where's all my action steps. You also might be filing stuff in a physical file drawer, too. So let's get rid of that as well. Or you might give something away. Well, that belongs to Bob. Let's take that out of the office. But when you find those actions, you really want to consolidate those and really see, okay, what is it that I need to do? And that would include any kind of legal pad or steno pad or notebook that you might be using. Now, when you get through taking a look at the legal pads, you really want to cross off the stuff that's done. And the other tasks that have not been done but still need to be done, leave them on the pad. You really want to see those, too. Post it notes are a lot easier sometimes. There's one task on a post it note, you've already done it, you could throw it away. Anything that's not been done, throw those in the pile as well. But you really have to consolidate that physical stuff first to see, and then you're going to want to get that into a digital format. And each one of those tasks does need to be typed up as a task. First step, next step, whatever it is in a digital platform. And this is where people get overwhelmed. And I get it. I do. And this is why I'm here to help. For the folks who don't have a lot of stuff on their desk and they just have the legal pads, they are just going straight to a digital platform and loading it up and while they're loading it up, we don't want to turn that into just a digital legal pad. We've got to assign those action dates. That's what makes it more meaningful and useful and valuable because otherwise it is just a digital version of a legal path. And that's where people fall into trouble, especially with not necessarily the apps out there right now but the old Microsoft outlook that I love so much. But we actually fix it. So it works for people in the methodology of taskology. But you know, when people go to those default screens it's a mess because all it says is subject and due date and then they just start filling it up and then it becomes a digital legal pad and it is no help at all to anybody not serving anyone. That's why we put structure around it to make it useful. And it is actually more powerful than the apps out there because of the way those apps are structured. They're taking up way too much space on the screen for just one task or one project. And then all the subtasks and all this other stuff, like it's so fancy and sexy that they've taken up the whole screen, which is one task and that's not useful either. Actually that's a struggle for people because now how are they going to prioritize? You can't see more than one or two things on the screen now you're in trouble. In Microsoft you can see like 25 or 30 or even more just by the way I structure the screen and it makes it so easy for you to prioritize from day to day and within a day because it's in your vision. When it's not in your vision, it's a little tough.

Eric Rutherford [21:41 - 22:02]: That is awesome. I love that description. And scenario two, with all the sticky notes and all the stuff as you're describing it, I'm like, she only can see the square on my camera, right? Like I'm wondering like do we have a hidden camera somewhere?

Leslie Shreve [22:02 - 22:04]: Like I've heard that before.

Eric Rutherford [22:04 - 22:50]: Yeah. So it's. But I appreciate that. I mean that's just like you described earlier. It's like what's the first step? So what's the first step? And those are very manageable first steps. Very doable. So then let's kind of step back. Anyway, we're going to shift on the hierarchy level and let's talk about busy leaders, busy executives, busy professionals. So they're working on their tasks, right. You've begun to do this, but then you've got delegation versus doing it themselves. So would you just kind of talk through that a little bit and like, is that easy for people to do? What keeps people from delegating? Like, I'd love to hear your thoughts on that.

Leslie Shreve [22:51 - 26:57]: Not easy for people to do, not even me. And I know and I teach it, you know, it's one of those conceptual things where you feel like it does take a lot of time invested to make sure that you're delegating properly. It is seriously an art all by itself. And I would recommend people pick up a book or something, you know, watch some serious podcast or YouTube videos or podcasts, and you dig into it because there's a lot to know. I do teach it and what I'll say is that I try to apply that to myself as well. I'm my own student. Because it does take some investment. When you delegate, the first thing that matters is what kind of task are you trying to delegate? Is it something that people can do by rote and it just becomes easy because it's kind of a no brainer? Or is it something where they actually have to learn something in order to do it properly? That's two completely different stories. If it's something that someone has to actually learn, you've got to go about it a different way. And you do have to invest more time to not only model it or teach it or have them learn by doing so that you're actually doing it with them and they're doing the work, but you're with them showing them how to do it. But they're using the mouse and they're using the keyboard and they're getting on the screen or whatever it is that needs to be done. They really need that experience, and that's learned by doing. And that's really, that's key. You also have to have that open communication. Make the person the that you're delegating to feel safe, you know? Hey, Julie, you know, when you get start to dig into this, if you have any questions, feel free to come ask me. Make sure it's a safe place for them to land so that they don't fear that they look stupid. If they're coming back to you and ask a question, you really want to open that door and let them know. Now, obviously, if they're doing something and they keep doing it wrong, well, now we need to teach a different way because maybe they should know what to do. They should know with their level of experience, their talent, their education, whatever it is. If they should know, then you want to test them, say, okay, and so let's say, Julie comes back to me and says, leslie, I have a question. Well, if they ask me a question and I'm thinking inside going, you should know the answer to that. I'm going to quiz them. So always quiz your people. Don't give the answer right away so fast, because now they're not learning anything. So be the quiz master. Well, Julie, what do you think you should do? You think they should know the answer? Pop quiz them. Get them to think on their own and tell you what they think they should do next. And then don't be critical or judgmental. Just course correct along the way and say, okay, you've got part of that right, or, no, that's not quite right, and then you can start teaching and give them the answer again. You know, teach again. I mean, and, you know, kind of guide them through that. But you don't want to answer questions that fast just to try to get it off your plate, because that's only going to bite you later. So there's a lot of different things to this. I mean, I could go on and on. I wrote a whole special report about it years ago, sort of just don't hesitate to delegate. I called it and I gave kind of the rules of the road. But honestly, even I couldn't dig in as deep as it could go because delegation can be quite complicated, and I do think a lot of people hesitate to do it because they know they can do it faster. But the truth is, it's not the best use of your time. And that's where I fall into the same bucket. It's not the best use of my time. If you can get somebody to do it, at least 80 or 85% as well as you can, you have to make decisions about whether that's good, good enough or not great at all, you know, depending on what the task is, and give it a try. But you really do have to take time to teach a person and then quiz them and have them repeat things back to you, make sure they understand exactly what is expected of them, and then they know what deadlines are. So that's the other thing that helps people prioritize their own day. So if you give something to someone and you say, I need you to do this, that's great. Well, now they don't know how to prioritize that with everything else on their plate. So you've got to give them a deadline or a due date. This is a real DUI date. They need that to go. Okay, now, I know that Eric wants this here, and so I'm going to have to move something else around to meet his deadline, you know? So without deadlines, it's very hard for people to know. And then that's when things can fall off their radar too fast. And then they say, oh, I didn't know you needed it then. So always give deadlines. I'll stop there because there's probably a ton more, but I don't think I would do it justice even, you know, because that's not like, that's part of my, part of my jam, but it's not my whole thing.

Eric Rutherford [26:57 - 27:46]: Well, it sounds like too, it is a practice. It's a habit, just like task organization, task management. How do you, so as you're working with clients and you're working through the list and you get the tasks and you get due dates, do you help them evaluate and say, okay, is this worth your time to do it versus delegating? Because that, to me, you know, both. I can do it faster myself. I can do it better. At least I think I can. Like, how do you, or, you know, is it worth it to delegate? Like, that's a, that's a selling point, really, right there where you really have to come to terms. Is that something they get better at over time, or do you walk them through that? I'd love to hear your thoughts.

Leslie Shreve [27:46 - 28:55]: It's funny is that I actually, I often don't have to point it out. They pick up on it first. The reason for that, because of the process, because we're building their task list into mission control, and they start to see how many tasks are landing in this one bucket. Even though it's not on all the same day, it's still in the list, in the system. And they're seeing it grow and grow and grow. They will identify first before I even ask the question. They'll be like, you know what? Fuck can do that. I'll give that to John. I'll give that to Sally, you know, and they'll say, yeah, I can delegate that. And they want to get it off of there, and it makes it easier for them to let go. That's because their awareness is up. Awareness is up of how much is on their plate, because we're building that list, and now it's going from 50 tasks to 60 and then 70 and then 80. And most of my clients, I have to be honest, they're somewhere between 40 and 70. So not many go up towards 100 or over, but there's a couple. So generally, the executives I work with, it's somewhere between 40 and 65 is their sweet spot, and they always have those. They just keep changing. And so when they see that build and they're like, wow, I have so much to do. I can definitely give that to john.

Eric Rutherford [28:57 - 29:10]: So does that also help with things that they don't want to do? Is that like, is that, like, part of it as well? Like, this is on my plate. I really don't want to do this. Can't somebody else do it? Yeah, let's hand it off.

Leslie Shreve [29:10 - 31:36]: It depends. If they know they've been kicking the can down the road. There's a couple of reasons that it could be for that scenario. One of the reasons is they've stated it too big, and they're like, I don't even know where to start. Or, gosh, I really need 4 hours for that. When really, the way I teach you don't. You can get it started with the first action step. That's only going to take you 20 minutes, ten minutes, 30 minutes maybe. I don't know. We work that out, I pull that out of them and I say, all right, eric, you're not going to get 4 hours for this. I'm just telling you, in the corporate work day or in your busy business owner workday, you're not going to get 4 hours. We can block it. Sure. If you twist my arm and we arm wrestle over this. Absolutely. When you have to sink into something, whether you're writing something, you got to get in the zone. Sure. We'll protect time on your calendar. No problem. But what I find and have found over the last 20 years is that a lot of times people can actually chip away at something and actually get that ball rolling. And now they're not hesitating or procrastinating anymore. They're not putting it off because they can't get that 4 hours or that 2 hours. Now they're getting started. A perfect example of that is when somebody needs to put together a report, whether it's a board report or a marketing report or a sales report, whatever it is, they feel like they have to do it all at once. But you don't. The first thing you really have to do is get the data, build the report. You can't build a report without the data. And so they might even state it as the final action step and say, give the board report to Susan. You can't give it to Susan until you make it. You can't make it until you get the data. And you can't get the data until you call Bob. I mean, there's just rewind it all the way back to the very first or next step that you need to do because that's all you need to do right now to get the ball rolling and keep it moving forward and it will keep unfolding. Okay, great, I got the data, now I can start the PowerPoint, whatever, you know, so I think people get fall into that trap of, well, I can't get this 2 hours, so I'm just not going to start. And you don't want to do that. No, please don't do that. Please just identify the very first step. And even when you think you've identified that very first step, try again, go lower, see how far you can go, you know? So that's one reason why people might kick the can down the road, you know, I think other reasons would be, so the two would be, I don't have enough time. I can't get the time I need. The other one is I phrased it too big and they kind of go hand in hand because once you break it down to that first step, you know, you can do that in 15 minutes, five minutes even, depending on what.

Eric Rutherford [31:36 - 31:55]: Now I appreciate that. I appreciate that distinction and talking through that because, yeah, it's usually going too big that says, no, I'm not going to do that because I can't get to it all. And then it feels overwhelming and then you start to spiral and then you're looking for anything that's not that task.

Leslie Shreve [31:55 - 32:51]: And then if they want to delegate something, sure. I mean, if it's something that's really part of the core of your job and you can't delegate it, you know, this is the solution is you need to break it down, make it manageable for you, make it easy and achievable and then they're off to the races, no problem. If it really is something that they feel like they shouldn't have to do anymore and they don't like it anyway and they think, I really should get this off my plate because it's not the best use of my time, well, then sure, let's delegate it, but then teach them how to do it properly and yes, and so this process can identify those as well because we talk through, okay, why aren't you doing it? Why are you kicking the can down the road? Is it because you don't like it or you don't know how to do it? And a lot of cases, if they say, well, I just don't know where to begin, we're going to figure out, okay, is this a what or a who? Like, maybe you should be talking to Joe about how he used to do it. So that's your first action step is call Joe and talk about how he did it. See how that works. Yeah. So you don't have to face this alone. If there's a who that we can turn to.

Eric Rutherford [32:51 - 33:28]: That's great description idea. Just kind of thinking through it because instead of tackling so trying to eat you, you know, the whole elephant, you're just trying to do one small thing at a time. So how then when it comes to like sea level leaders, executives and their team members, you know, I know you mentioned earlier, you know, due dates, you know, making it safe to ask questions. What are some other things that, that these executives can do to, to really enhance efficiency while reducing stress for their team?

Leslie Shreve [33:28 - 38:20]: Taking seriously the fact that not everyone on their team knows how to work efficiently, effectively or productively. I think it's a faulty assumption that a lot of leaders make and I know I'm going to ruffle some feathers on that one, but I'm sorry it had to be said. I think a lot of leaders, because I've met them all over the years, I've met the ones who say, you know what, I really want to help my team become more efficient. What can we do? And then we might do a taskology for teams training. That's my 90 day program. Then I talk to other people where we're having a conversation because one of their team members might be struggling and maybe that team member came to me and now we're all talking about it and the leader says, I leave that to my people. I don't get involved in that. Okay, well, that's not helping because even though you don't sit there and teach them yourself and no, you don't have to do that because if you think you've got it dialed, that's awesome. We don't need to fix anything that's not broken. But your team member over here is dragged. They are stressed out. They are on their way to burnout. And when that happens, they're not doing their best work and that's not good for your team or you or the company. So I want everyone out there to understand that not everyone knows how to work efficiently, effectively and productively. And you may never see it. So a lot of this chaos is in the computer. You might look at their office and they might be neat as a pin. That has nothing to do with it because they might have thousands of emails in the inbox that they are drowning in and they may have hundreds of folders on the left. And that's even worse, by the way, because there is such a thing as over organized and if you are scrolling and searching for too long to find something or to file something, you are losing time. You will never back. So that's just one thing that's in the computer. The other one is maybe the hard drive or if you're using Google Docs or Onedrive or Dropbox or whatever for your electronic documents, that's another chaotic place for people to find things. You know, way too many people are losing time in their day looking for things they know they have but just can't find. No, they have it, they just don't know where to find it. And that's trouble. That could be contacts too, in a contact system, be attachments to an email. I know I've got that email somewhere, but now I have to run a search because it's embedded in one of those emails that's in one of those hundreds of folders on the left side of the screen, you know, so time is being lost here from that sort of thing. And I think if a leader isn't looking to see how many and they might feel, well, that's too nosy, well, that's not my business, or I don't want to be judgmental, just understand it's none of those things. It's no different than if in the old days, which I came from where we had none of this and I still had my Franklin Covey planner back in the nineties. If you're looking at somebody's desk and it is clearly a chaotic situation, you have got to understand that. Even if they're like, no, I know where everything is. Really they don't. So it's going to take them a minute to find whatever it is they need. They're going to sell you that and they're going to try to, but it isn't true because there are so many more efficiencies that could be gained and time saved by actually getting things in a streamlined system. And, you know, clearly what you're seeing on a desk is a pileup of stuff. But remember, there's tasks and follow ups in there too, as well as opportunities, events, questions, conversations that they might be missing out on all of that stuff. And it's also not great for client relationships. It's also not great for bringing in prospects on time, you know, following up on projects and initiatives on time. When those delays start happening, whether it's with your internal customers or your external, it's not good. So I really want leaders to know you're helping your people if you ask them these questions. How are you really doing with managing email? Are you flagging everything? Because that's not serving you. That's not helping anybody. How are you doing with keeping track of tasks? Because tasks come from more than ten different sources. Email is just the biggest one. That's not even counting all the tools that people try to use, because the sources are different. That's email, voicemail, texting, social media meetings, hallway conversations, papers and files themselves. And then when you fill up a legal, padded, that's another source. Then you got the tools. Well, I have this app, and I have this whiteboard, and I'm trying to use the Excel spreadsheet, too. And I've got my steno pad and my notebook for meetings. Goodness. Now people are trying to plan and prioritize in their head because all they're doing is trying to remember the most important thing at each one of those locations. That's a disaster, because that's when things start slipping through the cracks. So leaders, hear me when I tell you you're helping. If you at least ask now, they might have some pride and not want to admit that they might be struggling, but, you know, you could ask them other questions, like, are you working nights and weekends? Are you coming in early to keep up? Are you having trouble, like, with focusing at night after you put the kids to bed? You know, is it hard? Because I want people to know, this is not the work day that you're stuck with. This is not as good as it gets. It can get better. You can be more efficient and have more time during the day so you can be super, super productive and then have more personal time for yourself.

Eric Rutherford [38:21 - 38:41]: You know, until you mentioned burnout, I had not thought about how just task organization, or a lack thereof, really leads to burnout or can be a major, major accelerator of burnout. I take it you've seen this a lot.

Leslie Shreve [38:41 - 40:07]: 20 years. And it's not just tasks, it's the big three tasks, email, information. They're all connected, Eric. And this is something else that people don't understand. In the old days, when I first started my business way back in 2003, you know, in those first couple years, people would come to me and go, I just need help with email. And I didn't know any better back then, so I tried. And then I realized very quickly, yeah, that's not going to happen, because until you have a working task list that contains everything that's on your plate, you're not able to incorporate email, especially with the technology now being connected over the years. You know, you want that integration. That's why Microsoft Outlook is so powerful. Even though they're about to change it and take away all the cool stuff that they have right now, they're actually making it look more like Asana Trello todoist gqs, you know, all that kind of stuff out there, which is a shame. So I'm grabbing my Kleenex and crying into that if they ever officially do that because that's going to be trouble. But the way that they leave it now with the current or the old Microsoft that we've got now in corporate, it is so powerful because you have email, contacts, calendar, tasks and notes all in the same system and you really do want and need that connectivity to really maximize your time and maximize your productivity and progress. Because when you're trying to integrate too many apps it can be a little clunky. People are like trying to cobble together all these different things in their day, you know, with staples and duct tape and paper clips, you know, it's like it's falling apart on the road, you know, and it's not easy. You're losing efficiencies like that.

Eric Rutherford [40:07 - 40:41]: So let's jump into email real quick because that, speaking of elephants, that's like the elephant in the room, I think, for everybody. So what are one or two things, ways that. Ideas, thoughts. What's that first step in managing an overflowing email inbox? Effectively? Efficiently. Because I don't know, there are a handful of people out there that I'm sure do this well normally. But I think this is a big challenge for a lot of people.

Leslie Shreve [40:41 - 46:50]: It is. Oh, it is. And believe me, Eric, even after people, my clients learn taskology, they still loathe email and hate it because it just never stops. You know, now they have the system to deal with it and they're like over the moon about that, but they still hate it so much because it does take time. And here's the thing. Remember we touched on like papers and files and build up on the desk a little while ago and I said decision making is key. This is decision making too, in the inbox. This is, I think, what wears people out. You know, they get this burnout because their prefrontal cortex where all the decisions are made, it gets worn out even after a little bit of emailing like by 10:00 in the morning. They're just like, oh my God, I'm just so worn out from making decisions about all the information we get. It's easy. It's easy to fall into because it just is so much coming at us all day, whether it's physical or digital. And every bit of information that you receive in a day, it needs your attention and your decisions. You need to report it that way. But it's true. Otherwise, if you aren't making decisions about what you received, it's going to build up. Clutter is unmade decisions, even if it's digital. And that's what's happening in the inbox, things are scrolling off the screen because a, well, two reasons really. Either decision making is hard. Like, Leslie, I don't know if I need this or not because they just are like, wow, I can't even, like, maybe the email is so long because somebody didn't write it correctly and it's these big paragraphs and you can't even come up for error. So those are overwhelming for all of us, even me. I had that happen to me last week and I thought, okay, I totally get it. Now I just want to close this email and move on because I can't deal with how this person wrote this email. That's tough. So everybody try to keep it short and sweet. Use bullets, do something short and sweet, but that can wear you out right there. But the truth is you really do have to get into a rhythm in a cadence of sizing it up, taking a minute, slowing down, because then you're going to eventually speed up your productivity because you don't want to come back to this twice and you just want to get through it and go, okay, how useful is this to me? Is it reference? Is it action? Can I delete it? Can I ask all those? Do I need to save something in the hard drive? Save contacts and contacts, whatever, figure out how the information is useful to you. Because if it isn't, you really need to make a decision right there to get it out of the inbox. If you're finding tasks and follow ups, we have a whole other process for that, to get those out and onto the taskology task list without using the flag. So one of the biggest things I can tell people, because this is a whole process in and of itself in our system, and it always lasts, you always have to have all these other things set up first because every email that comes into your inbox really must go someplace else for the best management of that information or that task, because nothing is best managed while it's still sitting in the inbox. It's just not. Now, I know we have two camps out there. We have. I keep everything in the inbox and I'm going to do a search and we have inbox zero. So as you can clearly see, I'm going to fall on the inbox zero side and not just to see the pretty white space. It's so, you know, you've seen everything, you've made a decision on everything and you all to better locations of either reference or action or it's gone, archived or deleted. That is what gives people peace of mind. They know where they are with all their tasks and projects. They know how to find their information in an instant because those systems are streamlined. And when they see that empty inbox, they know they can run over to the task list and dive back in again because they're going to get more email and then keep getting back to zero throughout the day. Not like they're paying attention to it every second of the day. No, they have their own cadence. Everybody's different. I don't schedule that stuff. I'm not in that camp of, oh, you're going to check it at noon and check it at five or check it. No, no, everybody is different and everybody gets a different amount of email every day rolling in. So what you really want to do is get tasks done. Remember, they're small and achievable. You should knock things out, you know, let's do one, let's do two, then go check email, get it back to zero once you've gotten there, then go back to the task list. And you really want to keep up with email because tasks and follow ups are hiding in there. I always tell people email management is really task management in disguise. It's information management in disguise too. So don't be fooled. Your to do list on your legal pad, that's not it. That's not all of it. Paper will never be complete. It's an incomplete approach because paper is a tool, not a system. So you really want to get that digital system, you want to make it central, the only one, the power of one, digital and complete, because if it's not complete, you don't have a full picture. You're flying blind. Too many things are spread out and in email. I would say the best step that you can take first is to get over in another camp, the inbox zero camp, and shoot for that. Because if you've got like thousands in there, it's just making it harder for you to even search. So if it's sitting there and it's old stuff and you really, it's just reference. Well, get the heck out of there. Create a folder that says, I don't know, 2018 to 2023 emails, leave this year separate, but make it for all the old stuff and just get it the heck out of there. Because then what you're left with is just this year, and then you can set up a folder for this year and then from there, like, listen, we don't go through all these emails. We only go through the last three months because that's where all the, that's where we got all the lessons, you know, the way we have our conversations, all the stuff we find, and we get to talk about, and I get to teach and then learn, and that's where it all is. So we're not going through hundreds and hundreds or thousands. Well, maybe hundreds, but not thousands. And so just get it out of there. Because when you make decisions on each and every email and you are honest about whether it's useful or not useful or it's junk, you unsubscribe whatever, you're going to narrow it down and you're going to find those tasks and nothing will slip through the cracks. I mean, if you're really tired of those oops moments or you're stressed out and you're waking up at midnight going, oh, boy, I forgot to do XYZ. You know, a lot of it's hiding an email, and it's going to whip at you another day, and that's not going to be fun. So if you're tired of that, go for inbox zero, start making decisions. Get the old stuff out first and then start making decisions. You've got to have systems in which to put this stuff, but you can get the old stuff out right now.

Eric Rutherford [46:50 - 47:24]: Okay, you've. You've convinced me. You've convinced me I was not one of those people. But based on what you were saying and the information you're sharing, I'm like, okay, that, that seems reasonable in terms of, it's just put the things in place to make the decision so you can make decision making easier, and then it just happens better, then you can stay on top of it as opposed to, you know, the closet, that when you open the door, everything falls out. So you never open the closet.

Leslie Shreve [47:24 - 48:42]: Right. And, yeah, it's those two things that are always missing. The first is decision making. So if somebody says, not sure if I need it, we talk through it. If somebody says to me, Leslie, I know I need it, well, the second thing is always, well, now I don't know where to put it. That's your systems, a place for contacts, a place for paper files in your file drawers, a place for electronic documents. That's all ship shape already. That can't be the black hole either. And then the task list for action because there are a lot of reference systems in your workday. I just named three of them. But there could be other places where you're storing something for reference. Whether it's company system or some other filing system, whatever it is. That's all reference. You shouldn't have to worry about that. Once you make a decision. I need it. Great. Get it where it needs to go, where you can find it again and be done. When it's action, though, you only want one place for that and that's going to be our taskology task list or whatever task list you decide to build somewhere else. And that's where everything active needs to go. Because once you get those tasks and follow ups out of email and onto your central mission control task list, when now you're comparing those tasks with everything else you already knew about. But at this point, it doesn't matter where it came from. It should never matter where it came from. They should all be boiled down into a formula like ours so that you know that everything is small and achievable. And now it doesn't matter where it came from. And it doesn't matter when you're going to take action. You're going to pick an action date that's appropriate for that task.

Eric Rutherford [48:43 - 48:58]: I think that's brilliant. I think that is very freeing and liberating, just as you describe it. And what that can be done as we wrap up. Any one takeaway that you'd like to leave the audience with how you work.

Leslie Shreve [48:58 - 50:04]: Just as important as doing your work, what that means is that, you know, doing your work is great. Using your expertise, that's the best use of your time. You bring a lot to the table. Your talent, your background, your experience, your education, all that is your expertise. And when you get to use it, it's awesome. That's where your time should really go in the day. There's a second part to the work day that people aren't thinking about. It's called workload management. That is how you are working. So if how you're working isn't working and you're in a rushed, reactive workday and you're looking for things and wasting time, losing time, spinning your wheels, wondering where to start, trying to find those to do lists on and on and on, how you're working isn't maximizing time. You're not able to be efficient, effective, or productive, and you're slowing down your own progress. And that part of your day is literally stealing time. Other part where you should and could be using your expertise. So if it really matters to you and you're passionate about what you do and you love your job, you love your business, and you love what you do and you want to spend more time doing it, think very seriously about how you're working right now. Actually possible.

Eric Rutherford [50:04 - 50:20]: Wow. Okay. So if you're listening like I am right now, take this to heart. Begin this process. Leslie, if people want to know more about you, if they want to know about productive day, more about taskology, where would you like them to go?

Leslie Shreve [50:20 - 51:23]: Easy. Productiveday.com. and they can reach out to me. Yeah. Leslieveday.com lesli eoductiveday.com we have a lot of goodies on the website. The first, I would say, is take the quiz. It's our quiz called what's your number one productivity blind spot? And it's kind of fun. It's short, but diagnostic. And at the end, you'll find out if you're a giver, a marker, a jumper, or a detective, and you'll get your own unique results report. And following that, you'll get another special quick insights report from me that dives deep into your particular outcome. And it will start sort of expanding on what it's about, what's really happening in your workday, and how to fix it. The second thing on our website that everyone can take advantage of is what we call the productive day, smart steps. And this is a 52 week audio series. It's just little two and three minute audios, tips and strategies straight from taskology, all the same stuff I teach my clients in weekly audios. And so for 52 weeks, you get little two minute audios, three minute audios from me, and I encourage everyone to take advantage of that as well.

Eric Rutherford [51:24 - 51:29]: Okay, so everybody, productiveday.com, take the quiz.

Leslie Shreve [51:29 - 51:30]: Yeah.

Eric Rutherford [51:30 - 51:51]: And then start the start to 52 weeks of content and get things moving so you can do the stuff that you like doing most and do. This has been, this has been phenomenal. I have so appreciated this conversation. Thanks for joining me today.

Leslie Shreve [51:51 - 51:55]: Thank you so much for inviting me. A very fun conversation. It's great to be here. Thanks, Eriche.