It's Marketing's Fault

Welcome to it's marketing's fall.

The podcast where we discuss how to do marketing the right way.

I'm your host, Eric Rutherford, and I'm thrilled today because I have with me, Kylie Kulak.

She is head of client engagement at Struck.

She has really a wide and diverse background in brand transformation across industries such as destination marketing, outdoor recreation, and biotechnology.

Kylie is also an active member of Chief, which is a network of female executives who are shaping the industry.

Kylie, welcome to the show.

Thank you so much, Eric, for having me.

I'm looking forward to this.

it's my pleasure.

I was excited because as we're looking forward to talking about struck about destination marketing, because that's something I would just like to learn more about.

That's not something I've been a part of.

But but before we jump into that, as I was going through and doing some research, I'd love to hear how your experience at co founding a local table .com.

impacted what you're doing today, it struck.

Sure, I'd love to talk about that.

So my husband and I, originally from Manhattan, grew up in the agency world for about 15 years.

And I think we're starting to really feel the effects of the grind and really have a love of food.

We love to eat it and we love to cook with it.

And the passion kind of formed into the desire to move to Park City, which where we are now.

and celebrate the local products and the local food of the area and the region and promote it nationally and ship nationally.

We were definitely a few years ahead of our time where you now see a lot more competitors and it shifted to a little bit more of a B2B model than we were wanting it to be from an initial ideation.

And it was a great learning experience.

I think, you know, when my husband was working full -time on it and I was more support, I think it...

has certainly instilled in me a little bit more respect and empathy with the clients that we work with who are blood, sweat and tears building a business and have to make very difficult decisions on how to invest the money that they have, right?

How much of it is marketing versus operations and how much of a risk are you willing to put out there?

So I'd say it was a very valuable experience personally, but also professionally and just having a better.

understanding and empathy when I speak to clients, particularly as startups, and we do work with a number of those who are in that transformation stage of really helping instill with them the confidence of working with a partner like us and how we'll work with them through the various phases of their growth.

Yeah, just being able to really, it sounds like go through the experiences that these startups go through just on a daily, weekly, monthly basis.

That definitely, you know, as within marketing, within customer success, within all of those roles, that makes a huge difference.

Totally.

So let's jump into Struck.

What is Struck for those listeners who are not familiar?

So we are a creative agency based out of Salt Lake City.

We're about 40 strong.

I've been around for about 26 years.

And we really are sweet spot is working with individuals and companies and organizations who are in a brand transformation stage, either as we mentioned, kind of startups or are going through a series raise or business.

milestone where they really need our health and expertise in best positioning them for that growth.

So we really focus primarily within travel and tourism, outdoor rec and biotechnology.

And sometimes people think that that's an interesting combination to have biotechnology in the mix, but at the heart of it, they are the ones who as going from either stealth mode to series A to all the way going public, They are having very key transformational, organizational and business growth and kind of learning pains and growing pains.

And that's how we can best position them and their brand for that growth that they're achieving.

So what, as you walk with companies from startup series A, series B, and so forth, what's the big change from startup to series A, and then again from series A to series B?

What are those big changes look like for those listening who are not?

Sure, so for stealth or very early on, it is who are you as a brand?

What is it that is your core positioning?

What is your name?

What does your identity look like?

How do you present yourself to investors through your sales decks, your pitches, et cetera, is really kind of that initial sweet spot.

It's just providing those.

companies and organizations with the core brand elements and a key understanding of who they are and who they want to be and they're going to grow to be.

As you start to move through the various phases of growth, you'll then start to see, okay, what are those key communication channels where we need to ensure that we're communicating the key messages such as your website, such as recruitment campaigns, such as any advertising campaigns, making sure that you're expanding your breadth of to audiences that you're speaking to, and then making sure that you have very tailored solutions for each of them.

And it goes all the way up through IPO of who are the key audiences that we need to speak to and what are the right messages that we need to communicate and what are the right channels through which we need to do so.

So as you work with those companies, who within those companies are you partnering with?

Is it strictly marketing?

Is it with the C -suite?

Is it with the product team?

How do you partner with them in that way?

Yeah, we're a little bit different in our approach from a new business and client relation partnership perspective.

We really, while someone might want to come to us and say, we need a brand, we need a name, give it to us.

We really want to make sure that we're talking to the key stakeholders and decision makers.

So the C -suite, and usually it's one individual within that team.

as well as the marketing support team as well, because it's important for us to understand their vision, their business goals, their business trajectory as they're expecting it to run so that we can also then be proactive and help our clients anticipate what's next that they might not be thinking of.

And I think that's something that we're a little bit different with as being real partners with our clients of coming to the table before there is an actual need.

and or problem that needs to be solved.

And so we're being proactive, being their marketing partner, if you will, to identify what opportunities they might need to consider to help achieve that growth that they've identified.

I'm all for bringing marketing to the table early.

I've been in product marketing for several years and getting product and getting some of those leadership to bring marketing in early can fix a lot of problems down the road.

Absolutely.

And it not that we all know that just because we can't ignore the next steps or the next iterations that a company needs to evolve to from a marketing perspective.

And you can't flip a switch and say, okay, yes, that's an issue.

Let's fix it right away.

But having the visibility and roadmap of knowing these are things that are going to have to be addressed in a certain amount of time helps prepare everybody.

And it makes the conversation with the C-suite, particularly the CFO.

a little bit more palatable because it's not a surprise and it's not a huge investment that they hadn't planned for.

That makes sense.

And so as you work with these early stage startup, and wherever they're at in their journey, then you're walking them through it.

You're educating in some ways, but really trying to help them define their brand, their product, their vision, and then taking them through those stages.

So it sounds like when they approach you, do they have a vision or are they just saying help?

Both.

We've worked with a number of companies who are in the process of developing that vision and we help support kind of the teasing out and the crystallization of who it is they are and what that roadmap looks like.

There are others who are very established brands like a Nickelodeon who knows who they are and a very successful brand but do have issues that they need help with, right?

And so.

It's our job to be that partner to kind of work with them, get under the hood, understand the business environment, understand the business goals, and then help craft solutions that could help achieve those.

Now that makes sense.

Just one of the cool things is I was researching Struck.

On their website they have the Struck Manifesto and one of the items is experience transformation.

It goes on to say experience transformation, the only ownable differentiator.

So would you elaborate on this?

Because I thought it was a fascinating way of describing it.

Does experience...

I mean, does it translate for all businesses, for just some businesses?

I'd love to hear your thoughts on that.

Absolutely, we believe it applies to all businesses, all sectors.

And really the crux of it is, you know, you have your business transformation, you're evolving your business, you're growing your business, you're understanding your product mix, you're offering, you're bringing it to market.

You then have your digital transformation where technology, as we all know, is moving at the speed of light and the tools in which we have help.

businesses speed, you know, scale at speed, but then also have new opportunities for engagement.

And where we really see experience transformation is this understanding that your brand is not just a logo on a billboard.

Your brand is not just on your website.

It is the culmination of the experience your consumer has with your brand through all of the touch points.

It is the feeling that is driven.

It is the satisfaction, whatever it is that we are wanting our clients, consumers to do and feel, it is delivering on that through every single touch point that they have with your brand.

And that's where you get your experience transformation.

Is that something these businesses understand they need?

Is that like an educational part on your side?

Like you need to have this?

How does that work?

And it goes back to that conversation, a few conversations we have with them of understanding what their business goals are, what revenue targets are, the nuts and bolts of where they want to be in three to five years, what's their desired future state.

And we start to work back from there.

I think it was really interesting in one of our recent conversations with a client that really is well positioned but needs to do a very serious raise.

So it needs to be speaking to a number of investors.

And when we told them how important having your conference room and your lobby reflect the brand that you are projecting and that they want to be investing in was a wise investment and they totally agreed.

And if you're trying to have huge deals or have folks, you know, commit a significant amount of money, They want to make sure that the brand that they're experiencing is consistent throughout.

It would be much harder sell, I would imagine, if you were at a folding table.

No, that makes sense.

And it sounds then too, it's not just a customer facing consistency, but even internally amongst people who work there, right?

Is that true?

Recruitment is a huge piece.

I mean, the most important thing about any successful business is that the entire employee base from founder to newest employee has a very clear idea of what the company is, what they stand for, and what they are bringing to the table every day.

And for that, you need very clear messaging.

You need very clear point of view.

But you also need ways of...

making sure that you're recruiting appropriately with those messages, but then also training appropriately and kind of reinstilling that throughout the day and life cycle within the company as well with your current employees.

consistency of just communication, that consistency from the top down, from the bottom up with everybody.

Absolutely.

So let's take a slight tangent and let's talk about tourism marketing.

How does tourism marketing differ from marketing for other industries or does it?

I would say it does slightly.

And it's been an evolution over the last, I'd say eight to 10 years, but at the crux of it, tourism marketing is marketing.

You have your funnel, you want to move people from the very top of your awareness phase to your conversion and then making sure that they're advocating for the services post their engagement with you.

So that's the funnel, it still exists.

I'd say where...

destination marketing has had its challenges is what we've been seeing with overcrowding, with seeing infrastructure issues.

And a lot of destination marketers have now found themselves becoming destination managers, which is a nuanced shift, right?

So ensuring that the residents aren't upset of the influx of people coming to Newport Beach, let's say.

that the residents aren't upset that they have nowhere to park when they want to go to their local restaurant, that the visitors are getting a good experience within the environment while they're there and a safe one too.

We want to make sure that folks who are visiting the state of Utah and are going to go down south and go camping or hiking, they're aware of how to be prepared so that there isn't a problem.

And so there has been this shift within destination marketing where they have had to encompass now destination management.

And that's not really what their responsibility is.

They should be working with various parties and government and ensuring that there's more connection and communication and understanding of what goals are and very strategically identifying what is the DM, you know, the destination marketing job and what does success look like.

but then how does that work with the local community and government to ensure that we're prepared for that when they come.

So that's fascinating.

I had no idea.

Like no idea that was a major challenge for tourism marketing.

As you describe it, it makes sense though, is are these are these conversations as you talk about this destination management?

Is that where you you have regular conversations with local government, with parks, with whomever, just sort of just like their It's like they're an internal customer, so to speak, in other places.

Is that how that works?

Absolutely, and it's very dependent on the Office of Tourism being very connected with obviously the other government officials and identifying what success looks like.

And as I mentioned, what each party should be responsible for.

Obviously, there should be alignment across the bigger picture.

Most destinations do want tourism because that is a great revenue driver.

I think one of the things where they're will continue to be a little bit more work, as I would hope within the industry is those government officials doing a better job communicating where those tax dollars are benefiting the local community and help pay off the influx and kind of the revenue that comes in, but show it to the residents who could be up in arms as to what the benefits are for them, you know, whether it's new parks or trail systems, what are.

be a little bit more transparent in how those revenue dollars are impacting them for the better.

no, that makes total sense.

That makes total sense.

Hang on just a second.

I've got a quick question.

Hang on.

Okay, all right, so let me ask as well about this idea of tourism niche.

So I understand like in various businesses and the idea of niching down and finding that sweet spot for your business.

How does that, how does it work in tourism and what's the key to defining it?

Sure.

Well, we have a great success story with our long standing relationship with the state of Utah.

We've been the creative AOR for 16 years.

And we really, when we were engaged at first, we were in charge of creating the brand of Life Elevated and also promoting Southern Utah.

And we did a fair amount of research and unfortunately found that our Red Rock parks were being mistaken for Arizona's or downtown Salt Lake City was being mistaken for Denver.

And so it was really a big challenge to say, okay, what is Utah overall?

And what is specifically the draw for Southern Utah and the parks?

And we continued to do a fair amount of research.

We did a lot of our brand positioning work, our defining of the brand.

And that's where we really came up with the Mighty Five.

We are the only state with five national parks within its state, all within four and a half, five hours driving within each other.

And we were able to create the brand of the Mighty Five and use that as the hook for the campaign that would then be rolled out with some of the key markets.

We perhaps were a little too successful.

We saw incredible visitation.

We saw incredible ROI to the tune of over$338 for every dollar invested.

And at that, we also recognized over those years that there was some internal pressures with the national parks, obviously not being as well funded as they should be.

Local communities not necessarily having the infrastructure to accommodate.

the huge influx during certain months.

And so as we've worked with them over the years, we've evolved our messaging to, yes, the Mighty Five will always be that hook, if you will, that will get the attention and then get them into that funnel that we talked about.

And then communicate all the other destinations, experiences, getting off the beaten path, visit like a local.

And then more importantly, make sure that you are responsible when you're visiting and understand.

What the conditions will be, respect the land if you know it is trails and making sure that they are going to have a positive experience while on the ground.

So we even also created the Forever Mighty initiative, which was all about responsible people.

Sorry.

Totally good.

Was that helpful?

Yeah, it is.

It is.

It sounds like you really try and find what makes that destination unique and what sets it apart from everything else.

That sounds like it could be a state like Utah.

It could be an individual park.

It could be a town.

It could be any of those things.

Is that true?

Yeah.

And we do that not just within our destination marketing.

That is we have that approach for all of our clients.

It's really we can only be the most successful when we truly uncover what is unique about your brand.

We did the Snowbird campaign a few years ago.

It's very famously called the One Star Campaign.

And that was the beauty of that.

And why it has been so successful is that previously they had been promoting themselves as a family ski resort.

I know you haven't been to Utah, but I will tell you, Snowbird and the Terrain is not a family ski resort.

And it was really honing in on what made them unique and rugged and for that hardcore skier that we were then be able to, we then were able to come up with a campaign where it took a negative, which were these one -star reviews from people who were complaining there was too much powder.

We're complaining that there was, you know, it was too advanced.

All of these things that our core audience.

love and was so excited about and, you know, revered about that resort that we really were able to focus in on our core audience.

And that from there just became a gang buster campaign.

So it's for all of our clients, we always apply who are you and what makes you different and unique.

And then that's what we leverage.

Wow.

Yeah, that's a major, that's a major positioning shift from family to rugged, extreme skiing and outdoors.

Yeah, and to your, I think earlier when we chatted about the employee base too, when this came to life, it was so satisfying to see the reaction from the employee base who were like, finally, this is who we are.

And this is we're being true to how we are marketing ourselves.

And to have that buy in from the employee base was obviously hugely rewarding as well.

Is that something where as you go in with some of these big rebrands that you're doing, do the frontline employees, sort of the non -executive, so to speak, do they sort of see and have a pulse on what the company's like versus maybe executives who may or may not, or maybe they've been there a long time, whatever.

Do you find that to be the case or does it just depend on the individual business?

I think it depends on the individual business.

I'd say for the most part, a lot of companies are doing a good job of having a clear vision mission and communicating that to the employee base, whether or not every employee can recite it.

That's a whole different story.

But I would say most companies are doing a very good job of that.

It's where we are able to bring our expertise is how we can really crystallize it and make it succinct.

And then...

I mean, we also were responsible for the Palisades Tahoe rebrand.

And if you're familiar with that resort, had a very unfortunate situation where their name, previous resort name was a slur.

And obviously you recognize that they needed to do something about that.

And part of our process is ensuring that we communicate with all the key stakeholders.

And I know we talked about the C -suite before, but it does mean employees.

We even talked to the tribes that were involved with that land and ensuring that we got key feedback and input so that we could get a full 360 perspective of all the various individuals and stakeholders within this community.

What are they all saying?

What are the common threads that is really kind of the DNA, if you will, of this place?

Yeah, so that sounds like just from the market research you're doing and talking with all of these groups, that's more than just, I don't want to say like database querying, right?

This is very, this is more qualitative, this is more conversational, this is really doing some.

Hard interviewing is not really, I mean that comes off as like it's really brutal, but it's not.

It's just functional interviewing and conversations to put the picture together.

Yep, and we do both right?

So we ensure that we do have that kind of data driven research and kind of certain surveys where necessary and then marry that obviously with a qualitative to really uncover.

Where the opportunity lies with the brand.

that makes sense.

And then, you know, as you as you talk about different different government organizations, local, you know, state, different businesses, how, how do strategic partnerships work?

Is that with a government entity?

Is that with specific for profit businesses?

Is it both?

How's that work?

I'd say it's a little nuanced for each individual client and understanding what the client team, what their strengths are and what they can bring to the table.

And then how can that be complemented?

And it doesn't need to live within a certain vertical.

I think it's really identifying where the synergies are that will help us achieve the goals of that strategic partnership.

Now that makes sense.

How would you what makes a good partner a good partnership versus a not good partner or maybe a less desirable partnership?

How do you figure that out?

I think it's having very candid conversations and clarity around what each party brings to the table, what each party will be able to deliver and making sure that that is captured and written down and agreed upon.

And, you know, what the overall investment, not financial, but from an emotional and What's the benefit for having this alliance and what would the better outcome be as a result of this and having those really honest conversations.

And sometimes they might be a little uncomfortable, but I think that's the most important piece is having that level of candor, transparency, and the ability to outline what each party will be able to do to amplify the two efforts.

So really trying to find that sweet spot of how both groups or all groups in a particular endeavor, how they can benefit from it, how it's not almost like the single pie example where everybody's trying to get it, where there's only one pie and everybody's trying to get just as much of it as they can.

You can have more pies, right?

Everybody can win and benefit.

and enjoy that.

Is that somewhat of an education step?

Is that like, do they understand everybody can win or is that something they sort of learn along the way?

I think it is part education.

I think it's part opening those individuals and those organizations eyes to what can be possible rather than the silo that they generally understandably work within and having those bigger conversations and asking those bigger questions that will help them think bigger and understand what the possibilities could be is our experience.

That makes sense.

I mean, in large corporations that I've worked in, it's, you know, I've experienced similar things where it's you're just trying to get everybody to see the benefit.

And so I was just curious with within tourism, within destination marketing, if it functioned in the same way.

And it sounds like it very similar.

Yeah, and I mean, that's where you need, you know, the director of tourism, the individual at the top of the organization to set a very clear strategic plan.

And generally those are, you know, one to three to five years of vision and then be able to articulate and have components that other organizations under the tourism umbrella can help support and help deliver on.

and having those conversations of how they're going to do it, right?

What does this 12 month plan look like versus the 24 month plan look like?

And checking in to ensuring that you are tracking success too, because I think one of the most compelling pieces of converting folks to engaging in those types of partnerships or supporting the larger cause is seeing, you know, success metrics along the way of others.

So how would you measure that success?

Is it like sales?

Is it like, I mean, tourism dollars?

How do you measure both the effectiveness and the success of the marketing?

Sure.

I say at a very high level, you're looking at kind of the ROI, right?

For the investment at the highest level in marketing, what has it driven in terms of tours and dollars and ROI?

We have various levels of success metrics that we've seen with various clients under that.

Particularly if you're doing any, if you're looking for an awareness play, there are partners that we can bring to the table who can help do pre and post campaign awareness.

measures, if it is more about for one of our clients, we need, we were eager to extend the length of stay of visitation from two nights to four nights.

So that's another, because then they're obviously spending more within the community with the local vendors and restaurants and hoteliers.

The other component that we often look at as a creative agency is creative testing.

And is it communicating the key messages that we.

identified as wanting to communicate at the very outset of our engagement?

And is it driving the recall, the awareness and recall that we're looking at?

So there are a number of factors that you're looking at when you're looking at kind of success of a marketing effort.

But at the, I think, as we spoke a little bit before, I think where we might see a little bit more focus in the community is how do you better translate?

the success from an ROI perspective to an in market community success metric so that you have more buy in from the local communities too.

That makes sense because if the community see the dollars coming in to benefit that it can bring to them personally, then yeah, then that definitely can swing the pendulum on support versus, you know, hostility for I mean, at some points, I'm sure it is hostility.

Absolutely.

And, you know, there are some metrics that I've seen some destinations use of, you know, for with this ROI, we were able to save you X amount of money in your personal taxes.

That's great.

But that I don't know if it is as compelling as did you know that you were able to get this new park for your family because of this or, you know, you now have this new infrastructure.

project that has been funded essentially by tourism dollars rather than a very high level number that maybe folks don't think about all that often.

So they didn't have to pay it.

Yeah, so yeah, it sounds like if when if you commit the more tangible you can make it the better it becomes in terms of of bias Mm -hmm.

I would agree.

Excellent.

So as we're wrapping up here, one takeaway that you would like to leave the listeners with, either in terms of marketing, in terms of destination marketing, even in terms of rebranding, would love to just open the floor.

Yeah, I think it's important to always be proactive and be thinking about what's next rather than waiting for the problem to present itself to then have to solve.

So understanding and looking at the data that you have access to.

What are some of those those top three things that you know you should probably tackling within the next window and help you can help prioritize what that looks like, but always being proactive always.

thinking ahead of instead of waiting for a problem to present itself that needs to be solved because those often happen on top of our day jobs.

yes, yeah the reactive is it can can cause incredible problems And those will happen.

That is fair to say, but as much as you can mitigate that, I would recommend that for some peace of mind for your marketing listeners.

Definitely.

And for everybody listening, if you've been in marketing for any time at all, you know, reactive happens so proactive whenever you can make it work.

So, Kylie, this has been really fun and educational.

I've learned about destination marketing.

Like I say, it was very much outside my sphere of understanding.

So this has given me a much better better picture of both the challenges and the benefits that it has.

Thanks for joining me today.

I loved it.

Thanks for having me on, Eric.

All right, let me find my stop button.